Need advice and support to keep hope

[dbmod]

^ additional thread

[Denver_2010]

For Gritter...

First some observations. Your fear is driving you. The fear of what she is doing or what she will choose.

As long as you let this emtotion rule you, you will remain stuck.

Thank you Gritter for reading about my situation. I really appreciate that as well as your thoughts. You are correct. I am driven by fear right now. I am working on detaching... not completely walking away, but in the sense that I won't be SO attached to my Ws thoughts, actions, and ability to affect my own happiness. Though whenever I do have contact with her, I lose about 2 or 3 steps in the process. It's tough.

Every time you tell her you think your M can still work you are telling her "I don't care what you want, I want what I want. And I want it right now!"

I understand. It is not validating her feelings and is pressuring? Right? What is a better response to W when she makes statement like mine did the other night:

"I just don't see how this can be fixed... how things can ever be comfortable again"

I merely responded: "i understand that you feel that way." It seems not saying anything to inject hope into her mind is almost agreeing with her. I DON"T agree with her damn*t! And I don't understand why she is giving up so easily. I know, I know, STFU.

Also I know you love your SS and want to be with him but IMO she sees your efforts as pressure on the R. Be honest with yourself and make sure you are not using SS for that purpose.

If you are stop.

Keep children out of harms way at all times would be my advice. So how you apply that takes some thinking on your part.

The situation with SS is complex. He has some emotional issues, maybe depression, maybe bipolar... but one thing is certain, is that he has a feeling of abandonment. From W when he was very young and she had to work a lot to support them and from his father who lives in Cali and very rarely saw him until I hired attorney for W to basically force him to begin seeing and contacting SS. Also, one of my W's complaints about me during M has been that I didn't spend enough time with him, didn't bond with him enough, etc. I tried, even coached his baseball team one year, but my career takes a lot of time, so it has been difficult. BUT, I do NOT want to give either him or W idea that I am abandoning him just as every one else has. I do love him and do miss him. Sincerely.

However, I'd be lying if I denied that I don't hope that my efforts will work in my favor in winning W back. So I guess Gritter, there is a little of both motivations going on here. I can't control if W thinks that I am manipulating her. Like I said, there would be a tad bit of truth there, but there is also a huge amount of true intention to do what is in SS's best interest... not to feel abandoned by me.

Your W has some complaints against you. I am sure some are valid. The ones that sting. Female friends that are not friends of the Marriage?

I am guilty here. During our R and M I always had female friends whom I did know prior to meeting W that I considered my friends. During the first few years of R, I was resistant to including W (the GF) in on the relationships. Why? I honestly don't know. Probably my stupid fear of losing my independence. As W and I's relationship progressed though, I gradually weeded most of those female friends out of my life. At least they became much less prominent in my life. But W would still see them on FB and the damage had been done early in our R. W always had trust issues with me bc I had a number of female friends who she was never allowed to get to know. My bad... big time.

And yes, I have been reconnecting with an old female friend who is going through a divorce. I have been honest with W about it. thus, W's comment to me that I have so many women in my life who she has no idea about. Not to mention the emails that she found from 5 years ago. In any case, I have never cheated on W. I guess it doesn't matter though since W does not believe me.

Find what you don't like in the mirror and kill it.

Kill it by living it, not by TELLING your W you've changed.

She will sniff out your BS changes like a drug dog at the Miami airport.

Have you noticed how she challenges you about your changes?

Your dress. The house. Your dating situation.

I truly believe that the changes I am making are for me. I have realized that during the 10 months prior to W leaving that I was going through depression. I generally was not a very fun person to be around. And my W probably took the brunt of it. I am dealing with depression by seeing IC and by generally letting go of the things that were causing the depression.

My W may be seeing my changes as BS. I agree with you that she has called me out on those things. I also agree that I've had a tendency to go over board trying to demonstrate those changes when I have contact with her. I will work on laying off of that in the future for sure. Thanks for making that so clear.

W says that I chose to leave M long before she did, I disagreed and said that I never physically left, that I never left M in my heart or my mind, that I was always proud that she was my W. I reiterated that I understand why she feels like she does, that I messed up, that I was depressed and just didn’t see it.

Lots about you up there. I lot of talking that she has heard already?

Next time....

STFU and just listen...for a change.

You are right. I'm wanting to tell her how things can be different. Actions not words, right? It's really hard practicing STFU when W simply sees things through some rewritten history and her fog. I will do better.

Thanks again Gritter. I really appreciate you, and everyone else, who takes the time to read through the problems of everyone else on this board. I hope to return the favor to someone else on this board someday.

[Denver_2010]

Zeng and Greb - I'm not sure what either of you is doing is considered going dark? Sandi, what do you think? J3B?

I THINK that there is a difference bw "going dark" and simply stopping the initiating of contact, which is what I am doing. I don't initiate contact with W, but will have short, to the point conversations, with W when she initiates. That is what my DB Coach suggested. But I don't think that is going dark.

Curious about vets view of this issue that is being discussed.

[Baboon]

Denver - the same thing has happened to me and hopefully this post results in a bump for you. I also wrote a response to your post in my thread but it never got posted which was a bit frustrating!

Best of luck to you - I pray for you and the rest of us.

[Denver_2010]

You too Baboon.

[Denver_2010]

HRT - Saw your post on one of my other thread...

"Hi Denver,
I'm reading it...so now I am a nobody on top of everything else? Just kidding ya man. Relax, we have enough on our plates with our W. Don't sweat the small stuff."

I definitely appreciate everyone who takes the time to read about the cr*p I'm going through. I was just trying to kill that particular thread since this is my main one. It takes a loooonnnggg time for my updates to post, so I figure that I should try to stick with this one. Anyway, I didn't mean to make you feel like a nobody. I've been keeping up with your thread too. How's it going?

Denver

[Truegritter]

Denver

Sorry man I just saw your responses today and I did check back on you. Don't know what happened.

First

"I just don't see how this can be fixed... how things can ever be comfortable again"

I can identify with how this makes you feel. You want to fight back and convince her not to think that way.

The first thing you must begin to understand here and pretty quick

YOU CANNOT CONTROL ANOTHER PERSON

Validating her feelings is not agreeing with her. It is merely recognizes that she has them and that you are listening.

But you really aren't listening. You are defending yourself and trying to convince her her feelings are wrong or misguided.

You have admitted to some things about yourself that you say your W may have complaint.

I would say to you that you need to dig deeper there. You kept these relationships with other woman she did not know.

How do you think that made her feel? Ok valid?

Now the big question is why Denver? Why did YOU choose that?

Also do you think taking up with other women whether physical or just emotional is helping you in trying to save your M?

I am not here to kick you in the cowboys but you need to look at the whys of the what you are doing and have done.

Your SS. This is going to be difficult for you to get a grip on. I know you feel the need to try to rescue him. Why force his father to see him? Why force anything here Denver?

You care about him. You want him to know that you have not abandoned him.

Tell your W that is important to you and that under the circumstances you want to repsect her wishes and what she ultimately sees as best for her son.

Don't push on this issue. Letting her know you repsect her judgment on that may go a long way or it won't. Either way ultimately you have no say in the matter I am afraid.

When you interact with your W you say it is diffucult and you takes backward steps.

Then don't interact with her. Don't be mean or spiteful. Respond to her for whatever it is that she is contacting you about. Do it in email or text if you have to.

You must begin to detach and most importantly stop focusing on your W and every little word that comes out of her mouth.

If you look at your M and in the mirror today are you happy with the man you were and are. Are you proud of the husband you have been?

Start asking yourself those questions.

Then undertsand that what you choose from this point on is for you. Whether you decide to stand in your M or not.

Do it for you. Not for what your W has chosen or not chosen. Not for what she has said or not said.

In fact you will see it may be in spite of what she is telling you and doing in your M right now.

That is the place of strength you must conquer your fears and doubts to get to.

And maybe. Your W will want that man back in her life.

[HRT]

Hi Denver,
It's all good friend. I was just joking with you and letting you know I was keeping up to date with your SITCH. Seems like we think alot alike. Like someone said, this is some hard sh!!t. We are new at it.

I feel the sameway you do, how can things ever be comfortable again? But, if that's how we really feel, what are we fighting for?

PS) I'm doing the best I can. Everyday does seem like a struggle. Seems like something is missing. (wonder what or who that is?) Been trying to detatch for MYSELF...that is some hard sh!!t too.

Hope you are doing well.

[sandi2]

Denver, I personally do not believe M people should have "friendships" with the opposite sex when it excludes the S. That is asking for M problems!

During our R and M I always had female friends whom I did know prior to meeting W that I considered my friends. During the first few years of R, I was resistant to including W (the GF) in on the relationships. Why? I honestly don't know. Probably my stupid fear of losing my independence. As W and I's relationship progressed though, I gradually weeded most of those female friends out of my life. At least they became much less prominent in my life. But W would still see them on FB and the damage had been done early in our R. W always had trust issues with me bc I had a number of female friends who she was never allowed to get to know. My bad... big time.

And yes, I have been reconnecting with an old female friend who is going through a divorce. I have been honest with W about it. thus, W's comment to me that I have so many women in my life who she has no idea about. Not to mention the emails that she found from 5 years ago. In any case, I have never cheated on W. I guess it doesn't matter though since W does not believe me.

I think this is worse than just "your bad". Even if you did not have a physical A with any of these women, your W felt cheated on by you having private friendships with opposite sex that did not include her. I suspect that if the shoe had been on the other foot, you would not have appreciated that. How do you think it made her feel? I can tell you how I would have felt and it would not be good. I don't know a single woman who would have liked their H having excluded friendships with OW. Now, she sees you still doing the same thing. Maybe that's why she feels the M can't be fixed.

Until you are ready to give up all these OW, she will continue to feel that you are having EA's. Can you not see that? Why on earth would you cut your W out of that, unless these OW were filling some emotional need that you had? There is nothing right about that, and until you show her that she is the only woman you care about having in your life....then you won't be able to say enough words to change her mind about D.

[Denver_2010]

Denver, I personally do not believe M people should have "friendships" with the opposite sex when it excludes the S. That is asking for M problems!

I agree... now. I wish that I would have had someone to hit me with this 2x4 years ago Sandi. Thank you for being so blunt here. Your words sent shock waves through my body bc you are so right.

To expand on the situation with OW through W and I's R... It was much more of a problem during the 1st 3 or so years of our dating R than it has been for the last 4 of our dating R and M. Bc those relationships with OWs caused arguments, I distanced myself from those female friends. I was resentful about it though and I never validated my W for feeling the way that she did/does. In fact, in the early days, I made it out to be a problem that she had. That she was insecure. I caused so much damage. I see it now.

Why did I do this? Sitting here thinking about it, it is clear that it is my own insecurities and ego. My insecurity about losing my independence. My ego of showing how I attract the opposite sex. I need to fix this.

This is something that I have thought about even before your post Sandi. And here I am still doing it with my female friend who I have bonded with bc she is going through similar problems in her M. I can cut that R off. That is not a problem. But how do I show or communicate W that I have realized that she has been right all of these years, that I was wrong, and why I made the stupid choices I did, i.e., ego, insecurity. Can I write her a letter or an email telling her and apologizing? That would go against my DBing in that it would be pursuing and pressuring, wouldn't it? It would also go against my DB Coach's advice to not initiate contact and not talk R with W.

I can realize all of the errors of my ways, and I can work at understanding why I made those errors, and work to fix them. For myself, for future R with W or someone else. But all of that doesn't necessarily help me with my M, unless W somehow knows that I feel this way now and am willing to work on the issues.

I think this is worse than just "your bad". Even if you did not have a physical A with any of these women, your W felt cheated on by you having private friendships with opposite sex that did not include her. I suspect that if the shoe had been on the other foot, you would not have appreciated that. How do you think it made her feel? I can tell you how I would have felt and it would not be good. I don't know a single woman who would have liked their H having excluded friendships with OW. Now, she sees you still doing the same thing. Maybe that's why she feels the M can't be fixed.

Until you are ready to give up all these OW, she will continue to feel that you are having EA's. Can you not see that? Why on earth would you cut your W out of that, unless these OW were filling some emotional need that you had? There is nothing right about that, and until you show her that she is the only woman you care about having in your life....then you won't be able to say enough words to change her mind about D.

Ok. I know that you are right. I really do. How can I show her when we barely talk, let alone see each other? I know that you probably don't have the answer to this. But any thoughts or ideas on things that I can do that might be seen by her even from afar... or things that I can say to her if given the opportunity would be appreciated greatly.

And I'm assuming that the answer to my question above about the idea of writing her a letter is going to be seen as a bad idea. That would seem to me to be the most obvious way of communicating this to W, but not in line with my DB strategy.

Thanks again Sandi.