My sad story is posted in the newcomer forum under Husband left for second time, but I was directed here since the issue that drove him out this time was an emotional affair. I read over the Ghandi method and I'm comfortable with that, in that I feel like I need very much to "back off" from pushing him as that is my major issue with him, that I am controlling and for years he enabled and encouraged that, but at the same time, I want to say that I don't accept what he is doing.
Our sitch is that he has admitted to a largely emotional affair with the OW that has been taking place only a few months, that in the past 3 weeks or so became more intense in that there were 3 kisses shared. He admits to having spent time with her essentially at happy hour or in passing at work. He says he has not ever been around her alone entirely or taken her anywhere, that always others were around, but that they were engaged in "deep conversation." I don't think he is holding back from these admissions (I could be wrong) because he seemed to want to "shock me" into throwing him out because that would be "easier" on him rather than him having to decide to leave on his own. He says now post-leaving that what has really "screwed with his head" is that I didn't react in hate and tell him it was over, but that I forgave what had happened so far and said that I felt that if he would walk away from her now and commit to working on things with us, that I could accept what he did. I also said "I might be able to accept the kisses/emotional connection and get over it, but I do not know that I'd be able to accept any more than that."
So as I see it that fits most the Ghandi method. I feel like the weird part here is that he has moved out BEFORE it got to a sexual affair, but he says he did that out of respect for me in that he didn't want to carry that out while he was living with me. I don't think he is asking for me to accept him fooling around and not break it off with him. He knows that that may very well be a deal-breaker.
I received an email from him a short time ago in which he says the following: that he has not met her since he left (2 days ago) but he has spoken to her by phone. That he is deeply sorry. That he wants to be my hero but he doesn't know that he can be that kind of man anymore. That he and she must both be "crazy" because they have both separated from committed relationships (my marriage 23 years and her live-in BF 7 years in a shared house) for something that "isn't about sex." He made the comment that if this was "just about sex" they could've probably given in to that and just gone on and only felt guilt and kept their sign. others in the dark. Therefore they would not have "destroyed" our lives to this degree. He also said that he wanted to have a "serious conversation" with me and that he felt that it was wrong to dump the house and yardwork respons. on me and that he wanted to continue to take care of those things for me as well as financial concerns.
What I don't get about this is why is he trying to take care of the house/yard? I think if he is going to end this, I have to deal with this on my own (and frankly the other time we separated, for the first month I did so until we began to reconcile). He seems very sorry in his note but also says he is crazy and afraid he can't ever overcome it. He says he doesn't understand why the two of them did this.
The only reason he could come up with for why he "fell" into this trap was that he felt he came back too early after the first separation and that we were not healed. This is true. I agree. And that as a result of our trust issues, we did not have an emotional connection. This made him so sad, that he felt that we couldn't get it back and it was over. So he said as he thought this that she came along (she is very much like me in many ways although about 15 years younger) and she seemed to connect with him in a new way that he had lost with me. As a result, he is smitten, and obsessed, and he cannot help himself.
Any thoughts?
M45 Bomb 6/09; EA 6/10; Divorced 1/11 Proud single mom of 7 little feline girls and one little feline boy "Fall down 53 times. Get up 54." -- Zen saying
ok, first, ghandi methed DOES encourage EXPOSURE.. you need to advertise to family and friends what he's doing to you and your home... And what this OW is doing to your marriage...
Second, your husband is an addict... Addicts LIE
Third, he's doing the yard work becuase he wants to BUY you OFF and so HE can feel LESS GUILTY
Tell him to stay OUT of the yard and you don't want his help...
Ghandi would not allow the british to mow his law either... Ghandi is about independence and maturity in presentation...
If he's moved out, tell him to keep away until the affair is over you and your children do NOT want to see or hear from him
Expose to friends and family that you want to save your marriage, but that your husband is cheating on you...
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All that BS he is shovelling you IS BS.. its classic excuses addicts make to justify cheating... refuse to accept it...
You cannot REASON with an addict... you CAN inspire CONSCIENCE by standing up for yourself and speaking OUT about what he's doing to the community
Tell your husband that there is only one way to resolve his mess :
1. It isn't doing yard work 2. It isn't buying your silence with financial donations to the home
The way he apologizes is to STOP IT and come HOME
That's the ONLY thing you will accept... the british out of india and the affair out of your marriage...
No compromises.. Ghandi didn't accept any, and neither should you
your husband my dear, is screwing with you and you are falling for it
Addicts are master manipulators and your husband is a classic case...
Out him.. FAST before he has sex with her, if he hasn't already... which may already be the case.. the LONGER you stall and hum and haw the WORSE this is gonig to GET
Also, tell him you don't want to have a "conversation".. you want that affair out of your marriage and out of your home... if that means divorce then that's the direction you will go
And no, this isn't you controlling him... HE is controlling YOU.. he's manipulating you into accepting an OPEN MARRIAGE... and the sooner you ACT DRAMATICALLY to SHOW him the CONSEQUENCES of cheating the sooner this is OVER... if you don't act FAST and HARD he is going to make this physical and play head games with you further...
End contact with him and tell him you dont' want anything to do with him... until the affair is ENDED
you arne't controlling HIM, you are PROTECTING yourself and your children from an affair
Allen A, thanks for all the advice. The only thing that I can't see working here is that it seems like friends and family don't care much. My family cares, but they don't feel they should confront him, that it might drive him further away out of anger that they confronted him and said he was wrong. He seems to know he is wrong (or at least says that) but says that he was so cautious his whole life that he needs to throw caution to the wind before "it's too late". His family is so detached from him that I doubt very much they'll try to set him straight. A v. good friend of mine was in the SAME position as him and she did reach out to him to say "STOP IT NOW". She did stop it and her marriage is intact 5 years later. But he isn't close to her. The problem overall is that he is not close to anyone BUT ME, and so while I can tell others and expose him, it seems like it doesn't matter all that much. Mutual friends of ours who know have simply said "sorry you're going through this." It's like no one wants to touch him with a ten foot pole on this issue but no one is cutting him off for it either.
He is meeting me to set some terms or tell me his plan, and I plan to say what you suggested above about the yardwork, etc.
M45 Bomb 6/09; EA 6/10; Divorced 1/11 Proud single mom of 7 little feline girls and one little feline boy "Fall down 53 times. Get up 54." -- Zen saying
He will be feeling some guilt, this is why he wants to talk... If he refused to talk to you he would be completely gone...
You need to take a strong position here and NOT let him just tell you "his plan" ... This marraige is his AND YOURS and you tell him that.. Tell him the "PLAN" is going to be decided by BOTH of you...
My concern here is that you are going to try to rationalize or negotiate with him...
That doens`t work with an addict...
he`s going to put up a wall of excuses to DEFLECT common sense...
The content of what you tell him won`t register much while he`s addicted....
HARD HITTING SIMPLE FACTS will.. particularly from an objective third party...
YOU are something he wants to escape from and avoid... all HIS problems he`s got pinned to you and he think she can avoid them by avoiding YOU... You trying to negotiate or reason with him won`t impact him much...
Addicts are TERRIBLY manipulative... you have to be VERY FIRM when dealing with an addict, you can`t accept any of their excuses or their lies... OR their pathetic attempts to soften the damage to the marriage by trading infidelity for yard work etc... He`s just trying to buy you off...
His objective is YOUR consent, acceptance, non-interference with his actions...
The more you interfere the more aggressive he will get, but that`s the best route to take...
Your husband is trying to steer you into an open marriage, he will use guilt, charm, lies, excuses, long drawn out dramatic brain vomit about just needing to do this, he`s in love, he`s been a good guy for years and gotten him nowhere, etc...
No matter what excuse he puts up, you give him the same answer :
NO
Do you have kids at all I don`t see a signature here...
Great advice, Allen. It is so much easier said than done, though. But, you are right - everything you say makes sense. What do you do with an addict who will not even admit what he is doing? When you know for sure, have all the proof you need, but still, he denies. Is it the same strategy?
Me:36 H:38 Together: 20 years Married: 16 years Kids: 13 & 10 yr. old Discovered affair: 1/10 H denies affair. Refuses to save marraige. Divorce filed: December 2010
Yup... You will NEVER have enough evidence to get an addict to accept their cheating if they don't want to.. video footage of them having sex he's just goign to say something like "I was just trying to keep her warm, she forgot her clothes at her apartment" or something silly like that...
1. You state the facts : I KNOW you are cheating and so do YOU 2. You ask them to stop 3. You invite them to work on their marriage like an adult 4. You inform them how much infidelity hurts you and your children
You walk away.. he's just going to be putting up walls... Do NOT wait for him to agree, do NOT argue with is excuses, do not try to negotiate.. you state the facts above and you EXIT the conversation.. if he presses you again later, you turn around, state the facts AGAIN and walk AWAY
if he does NOT ACT in a manner to STOP after the confrontation above you act to show him teh consequences
1. Exposure 2. Shut down all household support for the infidelity 3. Bring in a third party to take on his household support 4. Refuse to contact him until he ends his affair 5. Expose further and deeper 6. Lock up all the household finances to ensure they are NOT used to support infidelity
Keep collecting INTEL during this time as well.. if you can
Ok meeting occurred. His central purpose in coming here was to explain that one, he hadn't seen her since he left Friday and he was not carrying on behind my back. He had spoken to her on the phone. I said that was carrying on anyway. He said that he wanted to explain to me/assure me that he had no interest in doing anything to hurt me financially and that he wondered if we could talk about some ways to split finances and bills to be fair. I said he was getting ahead of himself because he had not filed anything, and did he really come to tell me he was filing anything. He said no, that he didn't even know how that worked, that for now he just wanted to ask if I'd consent to certain things which he hadn' thought out that well anyway. I said come back with a separation agreement outlining finances. He seemed to not want to go there yet.
I asked if he would consent to a few sessions of MC. He said he wouldn't rule it out but he wouldn't yet consent, that he wasn't there yet and didn't know if he would be. He said he feared that my saying I thought I could forgive him for the cheating so far (I said I'd forgive if he was sorry and wanted to be forgiven AND wanted to reconcile and dump her) was not really legit, that it was so out of character for me to say that that he wondered if I'd come back some day and turn that around. I don't think he has the right to dictate what I do "some day." I said this. I said for now that he'd have to take that chance.
He says that he regrets hurting me so deeply but he doesn't regret the emotional affair so far. He really thinks that it is an opportunity for him to deny everything he ever was and become a different person.
Except that he admits that it might not work if the OW rejects him, because she left her BF, but what if SHE decides she screwed up? I totally get the impression that he is holding both of us in a balance trying to ensure he has "someone" in his life: she gets first dibs now as she is someone who makes him feel happier about himself than I do because I push his buttons. If she rejects him, then he has me to go back to. Except that he says over and over that he knows he has no right to ask for that. And why don't I hate him, he says.
I just can't shut love off, I guess, and I feel like if he chose to try there would be a chance for us.
I know this is all manipulation and I think that the only choice I have to stop any manipulation is to call for the divorce myself. I'm not prepared to do that yet. I told him I'd like him to either decide on counseling and if so, to cut her off for now, OR to decide he wants this affair and petition for divorce, at which point I would NOT have any more contact with him. At first he said he felt I was trying to force him to make a decision now. I said I had every right to after what he did, but I couldn't force it if he wouldn't let me. His biggest problem EVER is that he has never been able to make decisions, so I find it ironic that he has put himself now into a position where it seems like he goes with her if SHE decides, and he loses me if I decide. He just waits it out.
Oh on the house/yard stuff, he was really bothered when I said no to this. Eventually he started to argue that he had a right to help, and to come to work there, because it was still technically his property too and he wanted it to stay nice (we have a huge yard, lots of tough yard work). I said so what, I'll hire a service, and he still kept saying that I could not keep him from coming to his own house. I said "but it's painful to me to see you" and he said he would promise to come on a schedule I gave. I still said that I think this isn't fair and it helps assuage his guilt. To be honest I think he is seeing what he'll lose a bit more now, in that before he was all about not caring that I took the house and today he walked around and picked up the cats and suggested that maybe I could take an apt. and he could take the house because he could maintain the yard and I would have such trouble, and that all this talk was him trying to "save me" from trying to take on something I wasn't capable of dealing with nor should want to deal with because of trying to prove to him I was capable. But you know, it's not about that. I said it's about the fact that if I have to lose my husband and all that that represents, I wanted to keep the house because I love the house. I don't actually think he'd fight me for it, but this was a turnaround.
In general, he still seems very conflicted and I guess wants more time but knows he has no business asking. He also seemed to be missing the house and cats a lot and he was only away 3 days. I told him he can't have his cake (the house and all our "stuff" as a couple) and eat it too (her/the affair).
M45 Bomb 6/09; EA 6/10; Divorced 1/11 Proud single mom of 7 little feline girls and one little feline boy "Fall down 53 times. Get up 54." -- Zen saying
Oh and no kids here. Together 4 years, then married 19 more.
M45 Bomb 6/09; EA 6/10; Divorced 1/11 Proud single mom of 7 little feline girls and one little feline boy "Fall down 53 times. Get up 54." -- Zen saying
