Her heart has already left

[Puppy Dog Tails]

The only people I could usefully expose the affair to are the OW parents who are quite elderly and I think it would end ANY possibility of reconciliation with W. Though, there are mutual friends who also stood up and made vows to uphold our marriage at our wedding. W is dead set against them knowing, counsellor agrees because they'd make things more complex, drama-filled, and messy.

You're already dead -- remember?

NO FEAR.

Puppy

[pearlharbr]

Agree with the keylogger, that's how I gathered my intel and proof.

What does W mean by saying you need to be the one to convey the NC rules? You set the rules for W? You tell OW? I don't buy the second one at all. W should write a NC letter to OW which is read, approved, and sent by you. I can't remember where I read the guidelines, but it should convey the message that W is ending all contact with OW because she is committed to working on her marriage to you. We also included that he is doing this because he loves me and wants to be with me, not out of guilt.

In addition to the books MC suggested earlier, I think the two must-reads are Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass and After the Affair by Janis Abrahms Spring. They're extremely helpful in discovering what led to the affair and how to deal with the aftermath whether you work to stay together or not. We worked through the exercises in ATA in lieu of going to counseling.

[Wonderxtreme]

I have found Not Just Friends very helpful. It is all so hard, you are getting great advice. For me it has been important to have a close friend to talk with and GAL. As I write this I have to admit I'm not doing great at getting a life stuff.

[pearlharbr]

GAL is VERY important. It takes your mind off your R problems. It reminds you of who you are as an individual. It gets you out and about meeting new people. It makes you happy and boosts your feelings of self-esteem and self-respect. It helps you realize that you will live, no matter what happens with your R.

And if you need a R-related reason, if you are uninteresting then others will be uninterested.

[AmyBel]

1. Keylogger: She's a geek. I'm not. How can I install keylogging software on her computer without her copping to it?

2. I have told all but the OW's parents and one couple (who might help but might also just through gasoline all over and light it, emotionally speaking)

3. I have confronted W and she has agreed to No Contact. I will confront OW in a 1/2 hour with the NC agreement.

I AM afraid to do more "snooping" if I'll get caught. But I am getting more intel in general.

I get the pre-warn friends and family thing. That might be something I can do more of.

Thank you

[Dudess]

3. I have confronted W and she has agreed to No Contact. I will confront OW in a 1/2 hour with the NC agreement.

Please reconsider handling it that way, if it's not too late.

I agree with Pearl on this.

What does W mean by saying you need to be the one to convey the NC rules? You set the rules for W? You tell OW? I don't buy the second one at all. W should write a NC letter to OW which is read, approved, and sent by you. I can't remember where I read the guidelines, but it should convey the message that W is ending all contact with OW because she is committed to working on her marriage to you.

[AmyBel]

I wanted to convey the information (it was a letter, I read it to her and handed it to her. She is my (former) best friend. There is a relationship there too that has to be addressed.

I expressed that I am hurt, betrayed, violated, and angry. I said that there is no honor in saying to another person's spouse that you want to be in a relationship with them. I gave her credit for realizing it was an affair an needed to stop (before we contacted her to tell her I wanted to meet with her to convey the agreement.)

I wanted to look into her eyes and hear her say that she would abide by it. I wanted to hear her say WHY she would abide by it. I wanted to see her body language and know that if my W weakens there is a chance that the OW will be the strong one.

We did meet. It was awkward and painful but I got what I wanted. 100%. I'm glad I did it that way.

I may find out later that you all were wiser than I, but I hope not.

I want to also reiterate that my W is feeling 100% committed to leaving the marriage but is willing to wait until June 9 to take action and willing to talk about it until then, AND to have no contact until then.

So I feel like my big bizarre hurdle is to overcome the "inlove" poisoning and de-polarize so that she is willing to consider our marriage as a desirable option again.

I'm thinking "GAL - make myself desirable and whole, differentiate, grow", "180 - undo the transference by doing things I don't usually do: in my case, some of the sweet and nice things will be 180s from usual behavior, being curious about who she is now that we've been apart and she's made some internal changes, etc." and "transparency - the hard one, trust but verify, so that the above two aren't a waste of time."

Am I driving you kind people crazy by my sorta taking your advice but not really? I feel like I'm juggling 100 balls. But it is really helpful to hear the advice, it is actually modifying my behaviour, even though it might not look like it!

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I wanted to convey the information (it was a letter, I read it to her and handed it to her. She is my (former) best friend. There is a relationship there too that has to be addressed.

I expressed that I am hurt, betrayed, violated, and angry. I said that there is no honor in saying to another person's spouse that you want to be in a relationship with them. I gave her credit for realizing it was an affair an needed to stop (before we contacted her to tell her I wanted to meet with her to convey the agreement.)

I wanted to look into her eyes and hear her say that she would abide by it. I wanted to hear her say WHY she would abide by it. I wanted to see her body language and know that if my W weakens there is a chance that the OW will be the strong one.

We did meet. It was awkward and painful but I got what I wanted. 100%. I'm glad I did it that way.

I may find out later that you all were wiser than I, but I hope not.

You know what Amy, it's not how I would have personally handled it, nor advocated someone ELSE handle it, but I'll give you this: you were decisive. You knew what you wanted, why you wanted it, and you ACTED, and for that, I respect you.

Hell, it's more than fully HALF the people do around here1

Puppy

[AmyBel]

Puppy (and those saying similar things)
I wanted to really thank you. I am naturally fairly controlled by my fear and anxiety. Makes me conflict averse and risk averse. I've been working that. And this is a SPLENDID (sarcasm intended) opportunity to do so. But I really need the pep talks and clear feedback. So, THANKS!

I also wanted to say...
Last night was a real low point. When w came home from her IT and shared that she really didn't know if she could try to save our marriage, EVEN IF THE OW WAS OUT OF THE PICTURE as an alternative. I pretty much lost it. Frankly, it was the best thing I could do.

I essentially said: Sorry, I'm not into throwing myself against a brick wall. I'm not that stupid. Our family is worth a whole lot, but that is just stupid. So you better give me a reason to want to work on this or I'm outahere.

And she did.

The way in which I feel like it was a milestone is that it forced her to consider ME ending the relationship. Forced her to use her own brain to think of reasons to stay in this M. Forced her to speak the words. Took us out of our completely polarized position. Opened some space for maybe seeing a future together.

The norepinephrine/serotonin poisoning is an issue still, of course. And I just can't bring myself to lie. (install keylogger) So transparency is an issue.

Appreciating the baby steps.

Then today she called her father and he asked her if she had brain tumor (or something to that effect.) I feel pretty validated. And I was hoping he'd be an ally for the marriage.

It is PISSING ME OFF that so many people are "I hope you both can find a way to be happy" instead of "I hope you can save your marriage and become happy in it." Our culture is F'd up about this! Relationships matter! The individual can't truly grow and become happy without doing the hard work of relationships. Yeesh!

OK, better stop!

[AmyBel]

Today she talked about a trial separation as a possibility starting the June 9 date.

I don't know what I think about that??? (as a way for her to "dry run" the other relationship...)

I'm glad to see her escape from her bilateral thinking (divorce or not, no other options.) but really don't know what a trial separation would mean...