I'm having a bit of trouble with the "forcing you ... to go outside the marriage to get your needs met" bit. Nobody can FORCE anybody to make a particular choice. Both partners have issues which cause them to arrive at a particular impasse.
Also, I'm not sure it's helpful to characterize SSM's wife as almost as "cruel" as a castrator, since she would appear to be acting out of selfishness, tunnel vision, etc, but not out of deliberate cruelty. And if he has attempted to gain bullying/shaming power from her family, I doubt he's in a healthier headspace.
I certainly agree that both need to stop viewing themselves as victims of past hurts, take ownership of their particular parts in this co-dependent/enmeshed relationship, and choose to move towards healthy, adult love and sexuality.
SSM, you're still talking about "threatening the nuclear option." Read all the posts you've received again. Meaningful change won't come through threatening divorce. There is no magical formula which will make your wife love sex, or change in any other way you'd like her to. Either you have the guts to contemplate how your life would look if you got your needs met *with integrity* and then refuse to settle for anything less ... or you sell yourself short. You're only "SSMGuy" as long as you choose to see yourself that way.
SSMGuy is shying away from things which might be characterised as "forceful" which is why I used that word about his wife. I know it is an extremely fine line to tread but there is something about a guy having, shall we say, single minded desire that is sexy. And I would even go so far as to say that many LD women are unconsciously turned off by the fact that their men are unwilling to be single-minded in their desire.
Some good friends of ours had a bickering type relationship where the W always seemed to know best. One day their cat needed to go to the vet, so the H (at his W's request) was trying to get the cat into its travel basket. The cat needless to say did not want to go in the basket. The whole time while the H was struggling to stay calm and carefully get the cat into the basket without hurting it (and getting all scratched up in the process) the W was standing behind him going "no don't do that, why are you holding his head that way?" etc etc. After about 10 minutes or so of this he could take no more and in the end he smacked her.
Now I'm the first one NOT to condone domestic violence. But I could totally see why he did it. It was still wrong but I could see why he did it. He should have just put the cat down and walked away.
Now if we think of the cat as the state of the M right now, SSMGuy is doing his best to get the M fixed, his W meantime is nagging away and telling him he's doing it all wrong.
I don't think SSMGuy should get his wife drunk and throw her over his shoulder. The grown up thing to do is put the cat down and walk way.
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
She had a bad thing happen to her when she was young is she going to let it ruin her life? And yours? It's genuinely about time she got the f&ck over it and it's about time you led the way.
Responding only to the suggested tone, I can tell you what has NOT worked, and that is getting angry and "laying down the law", and "telling it like it is". She does not respond well to the motivation that she "better do this and that or my husband is going to be angry". Telling her it's about time she get the f**k over this thing does NOT work at all. If it did, I wouldn't be here posting!
I'm having a bit of trouble with the "forcing you ... to go outside the marriage to get your needs met" bit. Nobody can FORCE anybody to make a particular choice. Both partners have issues which cause them to arrive at a particular impasse that way.
Well, it's not force, but I know what he means. But I also take issue with the overly neat de-victimization rewording which simplifies it to each individual being 100% responsible for their own behavior. Yeah, sure, as if it's OK to play head games with a depressed person to the point where they commit suicide, and wow, well, that's not your fault. I don't care how you slice it, both parties in a marriage usually have a significant part in their individual resulting behaviors.
I won't soon forget the huge protests which came from women when that guy on Oprah, a book author of "Why Men Cheat" or something like that, a few months ago suggested to women how they could strengthen their marriages and reduce the chances of their husbands cheating. He stated again and again that the wives are NOT responsible for their husbands' cheating. But it didn't matter how many times he said it. Scores of women still took his advice on how to REDUCE the man's chances of cheating as their being responsible. Of course, in a statistical sense, you can't separate the two. It's all in the moral interpretation. And the fact, of course, is -- surprise -- you often do have an effect on your spouses behavior. Otherwise, what the heck would a marriage be???
Anybody who's preoccupied with who's at fault and who's responsible is far from solving any of these problems. Both partners usually have a significant hand in their resulting behaviors, either directly or indirectly. That's just plain obvious.
As I've said before, I don't blame my wife for my own behavior outside of my marriage. But I can state as fact my behavior would have been different had my wife been interested in sex.
You said: "I can't imagine what advice someone could have given my friend that would have worked, aside from what he did. He had to get to the point where he was utterly convinced there was no hope to continue working on his marriage, and just find someone else. Understanding that, and that her husband was in fact capable of finding and bedding and moving in with another woman, was what it took. She finally understood that she had in fact "lost" her husband and that SHE had to do something or he'd never be around again."
Yep. That's what it will take. It won't even necessarily have to include another woman. But it will have to include the willingness to leave if things don't change for the better.
Didn't we go over this in your first thread??? I had to learn this one the hard way ssmguy. YOU MUST DROP THE ROPE, then she *may* come around. Until she knows the relationship is at risk for certain there will be no real changes. And it won't feel really at risk until you are actually ready to walk, willing to walk away.
I pleaded with my wife for things to change... nothing changed. I made changes in myself to improve the R... nothing changed. I let her know how I was hurting and feeling... nothing changed.
A year passed then...
The weeks leading up to the point where I had let go of her, she could feel my letting go. She knew it was real, because it was real. That's when she came to me, wanted to go to sex therapy, wanted to do anything to save our relationship. She knew it was over *unless* we really worked on our relationship.
When I had let go I didn't know what would happen. I had accepted the fact that I may not be with her any longer, as much as that hurt. That's all I could do and it's what I had to do for myself to live honestly.
She had a bad thing happen to her when she was young is she going to let it ruin her life? And yours? It's genuinely about time she got the f&ck over it and it's about time you led the way.
Responding only to the suggested tone, I can tell you what has NOT worked, and that is getting angry and "laying down the law", and "telling it like it is". She does not respond well to the motivation that she "better do this and that or my husband is going to be angry". Telling her it's about time she get the f**k over this thing does NOT work at all. If it did, I wouldn't be here posting!
Well, no, that wouldn't work: it's childish and bullying and treats your W as though she were your inferior.
She had a bad thing happen to her when she was young is she going to let it ruin her life? And yours? It's genuinely about time she got the f&ck over it and it's about time you led the way.
Responding only to the suggested tone, I can tell you what has NOT worked, and that is getting angry and "laying down the law", and "telling it like it is". She does not respond well to the motivation that she "better do this and that or my husband is going to be angry". Telling her it's about time she get the f**k over this thing does NOT work at all. If it did, I wouldn't be here posting!
Well, no, that wouldn't work: it's childish and bullying and treats your W as though she were your inferior.
Besides, it's far more unnerving if you get really, really quiet...
The weeks leading up to the point where I had let go of her, she could feel my letting go. She knew it was real, because it was real. That's when she came to me, wanted to go to sex therapy, wanted to do anything to save our relationship. She knew it was over *unless* we really worked on our relationship.
When I had let go I didn't know what would happen. I had accepted the fact that I may not be with her any longer, as much as that hurt. That's all I could do and it's what I had to do for myself to live honestly.
For some (and in this case women), no amount of anything that is nonviolent will make any difference. Period.
The behavior is almost, but not quite, the behavior of a sociopathic personality. There is no empathy there. You cannot get a straight answer as to why they want to be married, stay married. Nothing moves them. And the reason things don't change? They, like you, cannot take action against that which they do not beleive or accept as "existing." It's just not a problem for them and not's that we holding a rope...we are pushing a rope. I doubt speaking the truth, at every opportunity, about just how disfunctional the marriage is would have any effect.
I, like SSMGuy, have no desire to become just another statistic. And the statistic is one of failure, not success, though he (and I) might ultimately be happier without our current wives. It's just a matter of how you wish to go out.
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
The weeks leading up to the point where I had let go of her, she could feel my letting go. She knew it was real, because it was real. That's when she came to me, wanted to go to sex therapy, wanted to do anything to save our relationship. She knew it was over *unless* we really worked on our relationship.
When I had let go I didn't know what would happen. I had accepted the fact that I may not be with her any longer, as much as that hurt. That's all I could do and it's what I had to do for myself to live honestly.
For some (and in this case women), no amount of anything that is nonviolent will make any difference. Period.
Have you ever actually done what Cinco is describing?
Quote:
The behavior is almost, but not quite, the behavior of a sociopathic personality. There is no empathy there. You cannot get a straight answer as to why they want to be married, stay married. Nothing moves them. And the reason things don't change? They, like you, cannot take action against that which they do not beleive or accept as "existing." It's just not a problem for them and not's that we holding a rope...we are pushing a rope. I doubt speaking the truth, at every opportunity, about just how disfunctional the marriage is would have any effect.
So, a borderline sociopathic personality? What is it exactly that attracts you to your wife? Why do you wish to stay married to her? Why do you? I'm still not clear.
Quote:
I, like SSMGuy, have no desire to become just another statistic. And the statistic is one of failure, not success, though he (and I) might ultimately be happier without our current wives. It's just a matter of how you wish to go out.
Well, are we not all destined to be mere statistics in the end? What is the opposite of being "just another statistic"?
How do you define "failure" and "success". How have you failed if you divorce your wife and you (and she?) are happier?
Is your "waiting more than a dozen years" marriage a success?
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
I, like SSMGuy, have no desire to become just another statistic. And the statistic is one of failure, not success, though he (and I) might ultimately be happier without our current wives. It's just a matter of how you wish to go out.
I have a bit of trouble with that comment.
Getting divorced, leaving a relationship that is unhealthy does not make one a failure. I would argue living in a half marriage, that messes with your self esteem and leaves you questioning if you ever really deserved the blessings that a committed, fulfilling intimate relationship may offer is failing yourself.
Leaving a marriage is difficult and painful. Leaving a marriage can leave you feeling ashamed and worried that you might be jumping off a cliff without knowing what you’re going to land on … but living in a marriage that fails to fulfil either partner is a medieval concept for a time when marriages were about family alliances and economic security.
I do not advocate divorce. Far from it – I believe we should all use all the skills and resources at our disposal to change ourselves sufficiently to be fulfilled in our partnerships … but having said that – if only one of you are interested in fixing what’s wrong with the relationship you’re immediately compromised by the choices your partner makes. That’s not OK. It’s toxic and it diminishes us.
I for one would prefer to live alone, honestly and sincerely taking responsibility for my own choices than stay in a marriage because I don’t want to be a statistic …. We’re all statistics … married or otherwise.
