Now that I have your attention-hopefully you can give me some pointers. I was in the newbie area, and it was suggested I bring it over here, so...let's get on with the novel. Get comfy, a warm glass of cocoa, and motor on. Before I give a brief (yeah right) review of my sicth, let me just say I am really not flippant about it, just a touch worn out. Off we go...
We are both deeply religious, don't smoke or drink and are committed to family-and I thought our marriage. 15 years ago my wife left with no warning, moving out everything in 1 day while I was at work and took our 6 kids with her. A PA followed immediately and she operated in the alien fog for 4 months. Everything but the actual deed was done. I came to find out several EA's happened before that and since. She filed for D, but after 4 months returned home and quit persuing the D. The only thing that shocked her out of the fog was a threat by cps to take the kids as she would leave them whenever to pursue her "love". The usual blame was put on me and our terrible M and one comment was how good it felt to never have to sleep with me again. She had an issue in the bedroom with OS that in her mind was "forced" although she initiated it alot because as she said-"I'm a pleaser" First thing done by her the day we get back together-OS. Right about this time I find out more details about her Dad sexually abusing her sister and "possibly" her when they were 10-14. She told, which resulted in a D and her mom dragging them through multiple marriages and states. Her sis and 2 bro's have followed the same pattern in life. She also let's me know that her oldest bro made her perform OS on him when she was young.
Fast forward 12 years. Wife is increasingly distant and combative. Counseling with church leaders end in her leaving counseling and "never meeting with him again". Youngest child leaves for college, we are now empty nesters. For 2 weeks life is much improved, including discussion of plans for fun and frolic in our freedom years. 2 days later while out of town, wife again packs up and leaves for another town 100 miles away. No word to me, kids, friends. I find out that this was planned for months. She files for D. again citing bedroom issues and feels I am hiding $, although all accts in both names and she takes $20,000 out of biz acct throwing a real curveball for payroll, and we piss another $20,000 down the drain with attorneys. After a month we date, she calls for "help me's" to which I gladly, but stupidly reply to in the middle of the night or whatever. In fact I misread one as something else and darn near got arrested for sexual assault. NC for 3 months, during which time I finally begin to recover from the 25lb weight loss and deep depression. 3 months later she calls off D, quits her job and we move into another house 7 miles from other house, because she will NOT move back there. During this time and since she has just blown off all former friends-nc.
We go on "honeymoon trip" during which sex is non-stop and I have to tell her stop the OS while I'm driving. I am now her BF (best friend) and it's all ok. 2 weeks later I am a dirty dog for "forcing her". We go to MC of her choice. After 2 IC sessions we do 3 JC sessions and every time she feels I and MC are picking on her. Refuses to go back. Begins to go cold, combative and distant again. After another year, we have a great 2 weeks, I'm out of town for work and come home to find-yep, gone again with no notice. This time I am PO'D! We have had our son living with us for 1 week at this point who had just been released from jail for incarceration of 7 months while having a mental physceout.
After a month, during which I see the up/down bizarre behavior, we talk during which time I tell her that if it's a D she wants I will try to support her although I would not choose that. I listen to her rants, not defending, and we end up having omg sex, cuz I'm now her BF. Over the next few months she is very warm, intimate on a regular basis, she is at house 5 days a week through holidays. After new years one day I return home again to find...what a surprise-her stuff is all gone again.
Now for the last month I have been DBing-GALing-and trying to detach and go gray (I am terrible at going dark). I have noticed that as I have done this, which is matching her actions which include much less contact, physical or verbal I am getting to a much better place in dealing with this. In fact, and this part scares me a little. I am rapidly approaching the anger/don't care point. It feels easier to NOT answer the phone when she calls, or to have her NOT show up for days on end. I was almost at the point to set some physical boundaries when she showed up and acted cold and aloof, so I mirrored it. We ended up in bed again after a convo where I was nice, kind and listened, and was the BFF.
Now I am as perplexed at the emotions I am feeling as I am at her lack of committment to me, our son or marriage. With some experience, I think I can say she is not having an A. In reading the list of an MLC person it's spot on for 99%, but is this round 3? My new IC believes it's a "borderline personality disorder", and like the 3 prior C believes I am in for one long ride on the yo-yo string-even IF my wife would start working on it. 12 years at this point of working on it has finally taken it's toll on me. I am ready to move on in life, with or without her. Quite literally ready to move and not even say anything to her about it. She seems perfectly content to stay in her rented 800 ft trailer with no room to move all her stuff enough to even walk in, and her job at walmart is her life. Dog is 2nd, kids 3rd, and me? Well I'm good for a conversation every now and then and a lay I guess, but not much else it seems.
I am fighting the feeling of even wanting to be with this "stranger" right now. I am finally at the point that a D looks better then this. It's not hurting knowing there are a few gals out there very interested in me.
Of course like all of you I've made my mistakes, but I am tired of hearing about them 10, 15, 30 years later. I've improved ALOT and am a pretty darn good catch!
I guess I need to hear what to specifically say to her when she justs shows up and acts like this is a normal R? I am not sure how much more patience I can show before I drop the bomb? So this is where you come in at the end of this novel-what should I be doing knowing that this behavior will be the norm until I make it different? I have come to believe that if we get back together it WILL just happen again.
well boundaries seem like the best thing you can do right now, and maybe something along the lines of not letting her just move back in so fast. it seems like she leaves and befor she is really ready she moves back in. perhaps since you are to a point where you are tired of the yo yo you can use this time to find for yourself what YOU really want. Stop just being there for her. (dont go cold) just be yourself and worry about things in your life away from her.. she needs to find herself
From what you mention about your C, it sounds as though you spend a lot of time diagnosing your W. Are you also working on your issues? Are you growing past them? I know you say you're a "lot better than you used to be," but have you ever specifically looked into what attracted you to a woman with so many abuse and esteem issues? We all marry the person whose wounds and necessary life lessons complement our own, so if you are ready to move on to a better relationship, this is a necessity.
About the moving on without saying anything about it--are there communication isssues you need to work on? (There are for almost every person who finds this site.)
Also, stop sleeping with her! It makes you feel as if you're betraying yourself, so set up a firm boundary there.
Now for the last month I have been DBing-GALing-and trying to detach and go gray (I am terrible at going dark). I have noticed that as I have done this, which is matching her actions which include much less contact, physical or verbal I am getting to a much better place in dealing with this. In fact, and this part scares me a little.
This is good BUT THEN
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I was almost at the point to set some physical boundaries when she showed up and acted cold and aloof, so I mirrored it. We ended up in bed again after a convo where I was nice, kind and listened, and was the BFF.
Did you think that after 3 years your R was back on track? Or were your hormones just working?
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n reading the list of an MLC person it's spot on for 99%, but is this round 3? My new IC believes it's a "borderline personality disorder", and like the 3 prior C believes I am in for one long ride on the yo-yo string-even
I agree you are in for a long ride!
What do you want? I seem to get mixed signals from your writing. It is not clear what YOU really want. Except maybe for the obvious. Your W will magically wake up and be a perfect human being. NEWS FLASH this is not going to happen magically. Before we can answer you need to decide what do you want.
I have told you to go dark previously. I have not changed my view on that. Your answer to my last post was that you did not want to wait 3 months much less 3 years.
Again MLC is not for the faint of heart. It is not a short term fix. There are no tricks. You said your W is borderline personality. Is she getting any treatment for this? This is one of the worst mental illnesses there are. My niece has this disease and she is basically incurable.
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I guess I need to hear what to specifically say to her when she justs shows up and acts like this is a normal R?
How about go get Psychiatric help.(I realize this is not DB advice but she has major problems)
IMHO you should probably leave your M. But that is not my place to give you that advice.
You have been here for a little while, so I am going to assume that you know the DB basics.
I DID read your: Naughty or Nice thread in Newcomers, I bring that up, because while, yes, it IS actually funny. It is also something you are proud of. Which worries me about a possible mean streak in you. If not mistaken THAT was a PA? Which unless I missed it, you are claiming here that none happened?
So while you have said that you are neither flippant, and you realize that you are not perfect, would you say that you had forgiven her in the past or are her mistakes something she is constantly reminded of by you?
You are going to get good advice here, but it comes much more slowly than in Newcomers...but a little faster than WAH or Sexual Issues.
Your wife, man if there isn't SOME sort of mental issue in her head...then (to me) she is devoid of some of the basic morals most people have.
From what you have posted about your past, you seem like a good man, but here in MLC, the LBS can always become better.
The most basic things, and I would like your input about you. Did you keep reminding her about her past mistakes.? Are you passive aggresive? Are you a patient man?
We work on ourselves here. : )
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Personally, I would stop having sex with her. I do understand that it keeps a connection, but if it keeps getting thrown back at you down the road, is it worth it?
Round 2, 3 or 20, who knows? I do know from experience if they don’t complete, then the fallout gets worse with the next phase.
I too understand not being able to trust that it won’t happen again. That is a decision you will have to make for yourself, because until she really heals, and you do, if you reunite there is a good possibility of this happening again.
Detatch as much as possible, GAL, minimal contact and letting her work this out on her own while you work on you is probably the only way you will ever really know if you are willing to see what might happen down the road. If you are willing to take the risk again.
It isn’t easy but…
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
On the other you are fed up and looking forward to moving on.
On top of both of those, you seem WAY willing to engage your wife sexually, even in the midst of the mess, making me wonder if there are in fact some issues between the two of you in that area.
Your wife definitely seems to have some diagnosable scars/issues related to the sexual arena. I find it hard to believe that she never engaged in any PA, especially when she so easily bounces from despising you to being intimate with you.
I'm not sure how you have a future together any different from the established 15 years without her willingness to get some REAL psychiatric help. And I'm not talking church counselor here.
As for you, I will echo Jack's comments. You will find that those who take up residence in MLC here have accepted that their spouse is pretty far out there, that it's going to be a really long journey back (if they ever make it back), and therefore most take quickly to taking advantage of their absence to do some serious introspection and work on becoming better people.
It sounds trite, but it's definitely not.
You may be some catch. You may have already made improvements. But I'm guessing that there is still work to be done.
If you plan to see this through, you're going to need an attitude SERIOUSLY different from the one you have now. Here in MLC land you learn quickly that WANTING something to be so definitely does NOT make it happen.
Patience.
Strength.
Empathy.
Boundaries.
Self work.
We hang our hats on these things.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
This forum is NOT for the thin skinned. Good for me, mine is pretty thick. I could see how some might get offended, but I certainly am not. What you read in my post is pretty much what is going through my head right now. I did not try to edit it to make sense, cuz the way it came out is about the way it is in my head right now as many of you pointed out-confusing as all get out!
Let me clarify a few things. First-Absolutley I still need lots of work!!! When I say I'm a catch, it's probably not on looks. I base that on qualities that are important to me. Honest-hard working-family first-kind-fun-integrity. I'm not perfect on those, but I'm good at them. For the first 15 years of marriage I was NOT fun to be married to for sure. A workaholic, not very empathetic, not a very good communicator (I still have a way to go on this) I pulled my weight and thought everyone else should pull theirs. I don't quite see it the same now. I've come a long way (I think) on the communication part. I ask, but more important I really do try and listen. Don't get it right all the time, but I am so much better at validating my wife's and other feelings, I just have to really work at it! So in that way I feel, maybe rather than say I'm a catch, I should say I feel like I deserve much more than I've been getting. Not for one or two years, but for the last 12-13 years. My kids can see it, but the W has rarely, if ever acknowledged it. Rather she seems to constantly live in the past, bring up even trivial (not to her I guess) but things from 30 years ago. (remember when you didn't open that door for me at my 25th B-day party?)
Another clarification-Yes she did have a PA. When I say everything but the deed itself, well let's see, nakedly humping each other, groping regularly, everything but putting the peg in the hole (I'm told). At times I've wondered if it actually just didn't really happen and she just can't tell me? I personally could not have done the things she was doing and not gone all the way. As to giving her grief about it? After her confessing, as she knew I was pretty much up to speed on it already, but she gave all the details a little at a time the first few weeks back together, and there was not much said, if ever for over 15 years. When her coldness, and complaining reached a fever pitch and every other day type thing, which included every thing I had ever done wrong from day one, to which I would always ask-why do we always have to live in the past? I sat down one day and wrote her a 6 page letter pointing out the unfairness of always bringing up the past and my many mistakes in it. I used her affair to attempt to point out that although that was about as big of a mistake as one could make in a mariage, she never, ever heard about it from me (she has since agreed that I DON'T bring it up.) But at that time she used that letter as a basis for justifying why she could leave with no notice, even though she used other items from the letter other than that.
Before that happened there were other events. Some how out of the blue our pediatrician who was divorcing just caught her in the hospital parking lot one day and kissed her. She was flabbergasted. My uncle who is 25 years her senior showed up at our door at 1 am to give her a necklace and she did not know why. Within a few weeks after the PA she told me she was going to spend the day with her cuz. I told her I was very uncomfortable with that as I was sure he had a crush on her. She told me I was nuts and was going to do it anyway. When midnight rolled around and she was not home, HIS parents called worried they were out having sex (I guess I was not the only one seeing it for what it appeared to be). She rolled in at 2am looking like hell. Apparently at around 10pm after a nice dinner and catching up with old times he just out of the blue leans over and tries to kiss her while fondling her breast. "Never been so shocked in my life" and walks home.
After round #2 and just a year ago, one day she tells me of similar accounts with some of my friends where they end up laying on top of her or something similar and she cannot believe what is happening. During her 10 month "vacation" as she calls it, her and 4 other folks meet at a man's house to listen to a business opportunity. Unlike the others, when they leave she has fallen asleep on the couch. She is "so surprised" when the guy comes in a few hours later and undoes his robe to reveal he's got nothing on underneath the robe. Just my wife's bad luck I am sure, Couldn't be her, could it? Stupid me, I never remind her of these events-ever. When she has related them and asks why these guys do this I have told her-because they know they can, with the messages you send them. Do I have a mean streak? Maybe so, but maybe it doesn't come out enough?
As for what do I want? Well that question was answered, but that is not reality at this point. In our faith, we believe you marry forever, not just this life. It's part of my dna. I have over the years become more committed to my marriage and wife then I ever thought possible and have never considered divorce an option. I thought she felt the same way. I also thought she would be completely faithful. I never considered myself a patient man. In fact quite the opposite. I have reacted to most of this over the years in ways I would have not believed as a young man, with more patience and forgiving then I would have advised a friend to do.
I have begun to realize that what I considered the impossible is true. Living like this cannot be any worse than a D (as far as I know right now) Because I value structure and organization so much, the fear of the unknown has been part of my unwillingness to even consider a D. Having an emotional connection has always been very high on my wife's list. She has felt like our only connection was physical (sex) and that was not cutting it for her. She has said often that I treat her different when we have it regular vs not. I used to deny that, but after trying to see it from her standpoint, I finally thought about it and agreed, and finally quit feeling guilty about it. Yes-if a married couple is not having regular sex, something is wrong, and one of the partners is probably not going to be happy and his attitude and behavior will reflect that. What a novel concept. I accept that my "regular" and hers can be different. When asked in counseling 15 years ago my "regular" was 1-2 times a day and hers was that a week. In the last months she has mentioned that if she felt we were best friends she'd be happy twice a day, (and I'd be hard pressed for that in a week-how times change). But for me it is the closest thing we have to an emotional connection right now and THAT is why it is so hard to give up. With all of life's challenges right now with biz in the toilet, the mental issues my son has and trying to support him that way and financially, I crave some vocal, emotional-mental support and especially from her. If that's all I get, I am darn sure having a hard time saying, "Nah I don't need that today. You take your little hot bod and get on back home to that trailer with your dog who gets more attention then I do" Now that is what I WANT to say at times, but the nads seem to have fallen off for the reasons stated.
On the plus side. I do make myself unavailable compared to just a month ago. I let her call. Sometimes I don't answer. I end the convo first. I don't talk about the R much at all. I not only act happier and less needy-I actually am!
Would I be devastated if she filed? Of course. Would I go into a-no sleep, depressed state again for 8 months? I don't think so. For ME, getting angry or flippant about it helps me become more detached, independent and helps me regain my self confidence. I have never had an issue about knowing where I want to go and what I want to accomplish until she pulls her dissapearing act. I have concluded that it pulls me so far away from who I really am and who I want to continue to be that I've finally realized this is just not me or what I want out of a marriage or a wife. This IMO is not the normal I seek or desire, nor should it be.
I am trying to break the cycle I let happen. I am trying to stand up for me and what I believe is not right. The hard part is sometimes knowing what right really is. Do I continue to be patient? Maybe. Is 13 years enough of this behavior continuing in our marriage? Too much. Is this how I really want to live, with the fear that I will come home at any given time to find her gone again? Absolutley NOT!
Have I seen her wondering what's going on with me the last few weeks with the DBing and GALing-Yep. Will it change enough? Will it ever get better? I don't know, and there is the rub. Would she even go get counseling? I'd be surprised.
33 years is a fair amount of time to spend together, along with 6 kids and 13 grandkids and counting. I have a habit of trying to not just look at today or tomorrow, but way down the road. I'd like my kids and theirs to be able to know how to hang in there and work at their marriages the way I feel I have, and have an example of success. The eye opener is realizing that you indeed can only change you. I thought if I worked long enough and hard enough, I could change the R. She would choose to change. I am realizing that maybe she does not want to. Maybe with where she is at mentally she cannot? I struggle with my feelings of deserting her and our M, but my tank has been on reserve for so long trying to hold this family together and everything else and admitting I cannot do it all is just another whack on the ego that is shrunk up quite a bit right now (I was in the pool).
So-there is more than you probably wanted to know. I can't decipher my own feelings at times, so I am not surprised when other's can't.
I hear what you say. I agree with most of it. I am implementing some. I know I need to do more of it, and recognize the positives to be gained for ME by it. It may seem like baby steps, but on this end some of it is giant steps.
I'm sure I've not answered all the questions, but I am still open to more suggestions. I do want to save my M. I cannot rescue someone who does not want to be rescued. I must save myself if I am going to be able to help anyone at all. That much I DO know!
For the couple of questions I did not answer-I married her not being aware of most of her baggage. I was sure she'd make a great mother. Other than constantly telling our kids behind my back I was a sorry father, and the other items mentioned, she was. And like most young men, I was intensely attracted to her sexually.
And yes OP-my hormones are playing a role in this even at my advanced age, along with other items mentioned.
So in case I did not make it clear-I still have lots of work to do on me! Alot of the diagnosis of my wife has come from 5 different MC's who I have not believed up until the last 3 years. (That and doing an honest review of her behavior)
