Looking for help with WAW

[mza8]

Yes, I need to stop trying to talk her out of it. It's controlling and she doesn't like it.

When I gave her that speech she thanked me for it. She became nice so I guess that was the part that worked. However, she still pushes for the D so I guess that part is the part that isn't working because I changed my position now and reached out to her to work on M.

No doubt when I pushed she pulled. That isn't working out so great.

The vets are right and I know it. Thanks Pookie.

By the way Pookie, I like your signature, "Recovering doormat". lol

[pookie69]

When I gave her that speech she thanked me for it. She became nice so I guess that was the part that worked.

She became nice because you respected her and agreed with her. She did not change her mind about D.

She became nice because you took the pressure off. She saw that you will stop trying to change her mind.

That's attractive.

See where you need to go?

[mza8]

Yes, I see where I need to go. Thanks again for showing me the way.

[futureunknown]

mza8-

Probably the biggest thing I learned in my sitch is PATIENCE. Let her go. Force yourself to stop obsessing about her and your sitch. Live your life. Gift yourself the gift of three months of peace. Then you can re-evaluate. Time has a way of clarifying things.

[mza8]

Future, thanks. That's very wise advice. Be patient and give the sitch some time. I truly do not feel that she will be willing to do anything with M until the house is resolved.

[Coach]

I truly do not feel that she will be willing to do anything with M until the house is resolved.

Nobody gives a hoot about what you feel. You are basing truths off of feelings?!?!? Women lead with their feelings (not attractive to a woman). You are mind reading and setting yourself up with false expectations.

How about you just TCB for yourself, make some goals that don't involve your W and get busy?

[Dudess]

mza8, I am responding to portions of your last post in the infidelity forum, because I think your interaction with her was significant.

We talked about good things…anything except the house and R.

Do you see how not talking about the relationship brought her closer to you?


We walked down the basement to see if the carpet needed to be vacuumed. Anyway, while we were down there I said, “ok, looks like we’re good.” She asked, “good with what?” I said good with the house cleaning. She looked at me and started to cry. I asked her what was wrong and she said nothing was wrong. I asked her again and got the same response so I dropped it.

We went back upstairs and talked more. She shared information with me about her foot. She hasn’t shared personal information with me at all.

She then said she felt sick. I told her to sit down and got her some water. I sat next to her and we talked more. Again, just good things, no R talk. I had to leave and told her that I had to be somewhere. We walked out to the garage and she kept on talking to me. I wound up almost being late to where I had to be because she kept talking.

Please notice that when you aren't trying to force any talk, (in this case because you had to be elsewhere), she moved towards you.


she walks up to me and stands very close to me. I didn’t know what to do...put my arm around her or do nothing. I told her that I thought she looked great. She put her head down and said that she is falling apart. I put my hand on her back and said that I still think she looks great.

She said she is falling apart and you told her she looked great?!? This was a chance for you to be a soft place for her to fall when she felt like she was falling apart.


We had a 3 hour talk on Tuesday. It started out talking about the house but then talked about the M. She slowly and reluctantly opened up a bit more and told me some things. She said she wanted me to “man-up” and take care of things for the past 2-3 years.

I suspect that now that you have begun to more consistently 'man up', she feels like she can show more of her soft, vulnerable side to you.


She once again said she doesn’t trust me and that she is angry. Then she said that I hurt her and she won’t let me hurt her again. I thought this was big that she finally said something so deep that I hurt her and she won’t let it happen again.

It is big. Did you validate her hurt, i.e., did you demonstrate caring and understanding about her feelings?


Said that she might feel differently in three years. I told her that I’m not waiting three years. That I am willing to try now and know it will take time.

This is huge that she indicated she might feel differently in three years. Did she ask you to wait three years? If not, saying 'now or never' may have felt like pressure to her.


We talked about counseling. I asked her again if she would go.

How many times have you done this thing which you acknowledge is a very bad move?


She started with her going for closure. I told her again that I don’t want to label why we’re going. She asked why I want to go and I told her to talk openly like we were doing now.

You are pressuring her to go to counseling so the two of you can do exactly what you were doing at the moment.

Notice that the open talk happened because you (1)'manned up', (2) stopped pursuing, (3) talked about anything but the R, and yet, . . . here you are putting a screeching halt to the open communication by pressuring her to go to counseling so you can have open communication.


She asked me why I wanted to get back together with her. I told her many reasons and at the end I told her the biggest reason is because I love her. I told her that I won’t hurt her again but she needs to try to let go of the past.

Not good to tell a woman how she needs to feel. That is very invalidating.


She then started to cry and said that she feels like she just can’t win. I told her that it isn’t about winning for me.

Did you ask her more about that? How does that feel for her? Do you understand why she feels that way? Are you trying to understand her perspective?

IMO, you really need to improve your listening/validating skills. David Burns has a good section on this in 'The Feeling Good Handbook' which I highly recommend.

[mza8]

Dudess, thanks for following me back to my newcomers thread. You have and continue to provide great advice and really get me thinking about things. Let me answer your questions.

Do you see how not talking about the relationship brought her closer to you?

Yes and it was very very nice. I felt like I was talking to my "W" again for the first time in a long time.

Please notice that when you aren't trying to force any talk, (in this case because you had to be elsewhere), she moved towards you.

Yes, I didn't notice it at the time but I do now.

She said she is falling apart and you told her she looked great?!? This was a chance for you to be a soft place for her to fall when she felt like she was falling apart.

I'm confused now. What should I have said? I thought telling her that even though she thought she was falling apart I told her I thought she still looked good to me. I wanted to give her a boost and make her feel good like I used to. I thought that was giving her a soft place to fall. Should I have asked her why she thinks she's falling apart or should I have just listened and said I understand or sorry to hear that? Something else? Wow, I really missed this one I guess.

I suspect that now that you have begun to more consistently 'man up', she feels like she can show more of her soft, vulnerable side to you.

I would agree. I have to say that I have really stepped up and taken care of things. I was very happy that she felt she could open up to me.

It is big. Did you validate her hurt, i.e., did you demonstrate caring and understanding about her feelings?

Yes, I told her that I know I hurt her and for that I am very sorry. I told her reasons how I knew I hurt her. I told her that I would never hurt her again, I've learned my lesson.

This is huge that she indicated she might feel differently in three years. Did she ask you to wait three years? If not, saying 'now or never' may have felt like pressure to her.

No, she didn't ask me to wait three years. She just said she might feel differently in three years about things but right now this is where she is. When I told her that I wouldn't wait three years she said that's not what she meant and she was just saying she doesn't know how she will feel over time. I think this is the part of the conversation when she told me that I deserve someone who can give me what I want and she can't give that to me right now. Those were her exact words, "right now." That's when I replied and told her don't tell me what I want. I missed that she might feel differently over time.

How many times have you done this thing which you acknowledge is a very bad move?

Too many to count. I know, very dumb on my part.

You are pressuring her to go to counseling so the two of you can do exactly what you were doing at the moment.

Well, I figured the counselor might help us recognize how/when we push each other's buttons so we can stop that. Also to get her to talk more openly in a safer environment for her. It's like pulling teeth when it's just her and I.

Notice that the open talk happened because you (1)'manned up', (2) stopped pursuing, (3) talked about anything but the R, and yet, . . . here you are putting a screeching halt to the open communication by pressuring her to go to counseling so you can have open communication.

Yeah, that is pretty dumb isn't it? Thanks for pointing that out, I see that now.

Not good to tell a woman how she needs to feel. That is very invalidating.

Yes, I should have left that laast sentence out. I shouldn't have tried to tell her how or what she should feel.

Did you ask her more about that? How does that feel for her? Do you understand why she feels that way? Are you trying to understand her perspective?

No, I blew that opportunity to be there for her. I'm not sure I completely understand why she feels that way, no. I am trying to understand her perspective. It's not always clear to me though. I did tell her that I'm not trying to win with her, I just want to be here for her.

IMO, you really need to improve your listening/validating skills. David Burns has a good section on this in 'The Feeling Good Handbook' which I highly recommend.

Yes, I agree. I'll see if I can find that book. Thanks Dudess.

I do ok lately with her except when she brings uo D. That's when I can backslid. I will work on this. Sometimes I think I'm starting to get through but then she brings up D and that frustrates me. I know, I need to stop worrying about that.

[bustorama]

Dude, I'm one of the crappiest DBers on here, but I just read your sitch and you have GOT to stop arguing against what your wife wants. When my W first dropped the bomb on me that she wanted a D, at first I did all the counter-arguments, etc. Then (before stumbling on DB/DR) I realized:

1) This isn't working,
2) If I D, I will be fine. The world will not end for me.
3) My W wants out and she is unhappy and scared how SHE will be. She needs validation and support.

She was bawling, depressed, shaking with anxiety. I told her calmly, "W, everything will be fine. Regardless of how things turn out, you will be fine, I will be fine, and our kids will be fine. And I promise you that each of us will be happier in the future, however things turn out, than we are today."

It wasn't really a letting go (since I didn't know about letting go), but it was a validation of her feelings, showing her I was not fighting her, and showing her confidence in myself (in all of us). It totally changed the dynamic between us when I told her I was fine with D if it came to that.

In your case:

1) How has it been working for you to try to argue/reason against her not wanting to be M to you? To argue stubbornly against her feelings?

2) If you D, you WILL be fine, whether you ultimately reconcile with W or not. Dude, you WILL be.

3) Your W feels that she wants out. Validate her. Man up and support her.

[mza8]

Thanks bustorama. I've gotten past the worrying if I'll be fine if we D. Enough time has passed that I don't really worry so much how I'll be. I have no choice anyway.

Biggest mistake I continue to make is arguing with her feelings and it's gotten me nowhere. I need to stop that, it doesn't work.

When we talk about the M, all she says is that she is done. Said that she hasn't felt differently over the past 10 months of S. Then she'll bring up reasons and things during this 10 month S between us that I've done that has reinforced her not trusting me. The reasons she gives are things that I did to protect myself as a result of her doing things like taking money from our account, etc. I try to tell her that my actions were just reactions to things she did and that I needed to protect myself. Of course she doesn't see it that way. I asked her if I had basically rolled over and gave her everything she wanted if that would have made her happy and trusted me. She doesn't answer that question.

When she tells me things like she's done, she's moved on, she doesn't feel any different, she can't give me what I want, etc., it makes me feel like her nice moments we have together recently are all fake. I think that those nice moments don't mean anything and it's nothing to build on afterall.

For Dudess. I remembered something else I said to W when she said she was falling apart. I put my hand on her back and told her to hang in there and everything would be alright. This was after I told her she looked good.

Still no contact from W after my voice mails to her yesterday. I'm sure she's still upset from our conversation on Thursday. I had to give her two important house updates yesterday. In both messages I apologized for the way I acted during that last conversation.