Avermont here again--the one with the 23 year R, WA bf in affair. Problems in the R that led to the affair where lack of intimacy (phys and emotional); lack of communication; my holding back on expressing my true feelings of love and committment.
So I am still wrestling with the proper 180. He is happily ensconced in affair; we have almost no contact. DB coach Laurie suggested I do a "90" if you will.
Guys--if you had always wanted more expressions of love, devotion, committment, etc. from your partner; finally gave up and left for an affair--wouldn't you want to feel pursued? Wouldn't it just convince you that you were right all along--she never really cared about me--if all you saw was her out GAL, living in the house, seeming OK?
I'm not talking about sending flowers and saying ILY and come back. I'm suggesting a "90" degree turn in our R would be for me to make contact--little, occasional emails about common interests--light hearted and all, but enough to show that he IS wanted? IS needed? all the things that he wasn't getting from me before? Although he is happy in the affair, can it be bad for him to know that I do miss him, I am thinking about him?
I am just afraid that he feels totally justified in leaving if I look and act totally capable and "not caring."
Thoughts on gentle pursuing? It would be the opposite of our 23 years, where in he was the pursuer, and I held back.
Me: 44 Him: 42 Together: 23 years; never married Bomb: August 1, 2009 Affair since May 2009 Walk away; no conversation; no process
My marriage was one that was marked by long-term SSM issues. I didn't feel wanted, sexually, and although I never strayed, I did feel tempted from time to time as my resentment and my sense of entitlement built up from my wife's lack of affection towards me.
It's hard for me to think about this hypothetically, but if I DID use those reasons as a justification to stray? And my wife tried to "win me back"? I'd probably just feel real smug, lose a little more respect for her, and let her pursue me, and I'd enjoy the attention of two women, thinking "I deserve this . . . I put up with nothing for a long time."
And I DAMNED sure wouldn't then make any sort of a decision, one way or another, as I am (like most humans!) a conflict-avoider, path-of-least-resistance kind of guy, so why would I choose, if I didn't have to??
And speaking as a student of affairs for 5 years, studying hundreds (if not thousands) of them, I have personally never seen the "try to win them back" thing work -- UNLESS you accompany it with hard boundaries.
I believe you have to "shine a light back towards the marriage" thru loving detachment, and a stated willingness to forgive, all the while GALing and doing your own thing and letting them know "I will not live in an open marriage," and taking a very aggressive stance toward the affair.
That may not be the pure DB catechism, but my observation has been that that's what has the highest chance of success. "Wanting to be pursued" and having that be the HEALTHIST thing for me to GET, to me, are two separate issues.
Two women pursuing me? I think my ego would feel great.. Wouldn't bother me a bit to have not one, but TWO women fighting over my love...
So.. This goes back to my normal view.. It wasn't until HE let go that you decided that he was worth pursuing. Now that he wants out you want him more than ever. Even though he is with another person you aren't worried whether he is worried about you losing your love for him by not pursuing you, but you ARE worried about him worrying that you must not love him because you are not pursuing him...
The truth is that when a man has another woman he is interested in, that when you pursue, you are risking him using you to cake eat. Most men WILL cake eat if allowed.
I do think he will think "I deserve this!" He did put up with a lot of nothing for a very long time. I don't have a problem with him feeling smug and feeling like he has earned my pursuing him.
And you are right, he is a conflict avoider, so I don't think he would 'choose.' I think the affair ends or not on it's own. I don't think he would give up the sweet hot loving thing now to engage in work with me. Why work hard when it is easy now?
But I don't know how to "shine a light" on the marriage if I don't even initiate little contacts. My "hope" was that by making gestures of openness, he would know that I am willing to forgive--should he ever ask for forgiveness!
Boundaries? Well, of course it would have to be that the affair was over.
I guess I trying to find the small gestures that let him know that he is loved, pursued, would be welcomed back, etc., even as that makes him smug. I don't know about his losing respect for me in doing that. I would have to think about that. Though, of course, having the affair and walking out is the ultimate sign of no respect!
Do you have thoughts on the "hard boundaries" that worked with "win them back?"
Do you have suggestions on "shining light" on the R? especially with no contact?
Realize I have been GAL, not asking for much (aside from early on asking for counseling), being cheerful, since he walked out. Things aren't changing, so doing more of the same is beginning to feel like...more of the same...
I feel like a subtle change...something small but open from me..would be different.
I'm not trying to argue--I am trying to think this through, so thank you for helping me!
Me: 44 Him: 42 Together: 23 years; never married Bomb: August 1, 2009 Affair since May 2009 Walk away; no conversation; no process
My main issue is that I have studied and read thousands upon thousands of these types of threads...
My belief is that you are on somewhat of a panic. This usually clouds out the real truth. I don't take what a person posts on here as the gospel of what the situation really really is in reality.
In your case. You have been together for 23 years. Suddenly he has someone else and now you are wanting to blame yourself for not doing this or not doing that. I am sure that you weren't perfect, but I do believe that you are re-writing some of the history of this relationship as much as he is doing right now...
When people re-write, they usually do it to get people to agree with their true motives. In your case maybe because you WANT to pursue because you are in a state of panic. In his case he is re-writing because he has another person he is giving himself to.
So, for you to tell me that you were with him for 23 years and that he wants out all of the sudden and blames it on lack of attention or whatever, seems to be a stretch here...
If you want to pursue.. then pursue. I really can't understand why an independent woman would think that acting dependent is growth and moving in the right direction.
You need to see if your history writing is really what you say it is or if you are possibly feeling so bad and in panic that you are willing to make this look like all your fault to get others to help you to pursue.
I do not think that is a good choice for you to make avermont. I think if you do this it will take you back to August. I think you should take this time to work on your grief. You are cycling at Bargaining right now. This is OK. This is normal what is happening to you. If I was you I would take this time to work on intimacy with yourself. Open up to yourself on why you are in this stage of grief right now. Try to figure out what triggered this. And work through it. I have felt this as well. I worked with myself on it and journalled.
I truly thing that it would be a mistake to give up all your hard earned work from the last 4 months. Continue to grive the loss of the relationship. Talk to us and a good close friend on this. Stay strong.
Puppy: insisting the affair be over before meeting his emotional needs: He isn't asking me to meet any needs. He is asking nothing from me. So I don't have any grounds for asking for the affair to end.
Panic and re-writing history: yes, today is a very bad day for some reason. But--I do truly know that he pursued ME all these years; I took his love for granted; didn't make the effort back to show him my love. I am sure I might be coloring it too strong given my current state, but yes, I held back and he wanted more.
Re: independent woman growth--I think it is growth to learn to ask for help (as I have been doing); to admit that I am not a towering pillar of strength and do need help/love; to admit that I am not self-contained, don't need no-one no-how sort of gal that I have presented. I'm not proposing I faint all over the place--but to admit to needing someone/something IS different for me.
He would have every right to feel smug if I made it clear I wanted him back. That's all right with me. I want him to know the door is open to reconcile...should he ever want to.
Re: Bargaining and grief. I am definately moving out of the total shock/chaos into grief now. But I don't know that I have done any hard earned work the last four months--at least as far as the R goes. I just survived (so far). That was hard enough. But as I haven't died yet, I have to wonder what the next steps are.
Gucci is 100% correct that it wasn't until he walked out that I knew how much I loved him. I don't think that he is worried that I didn't love him because I am not fighting for him. I think that he feels more justified--see, she's not upset--this is no big deal to her.
I GAL; I have no contact; I do whatever is necessary to survive (AD meds, therapy, talking to friends, running) but haven't done anything to affect the R.
He is over there, and I am over here, and never the twain shall meet--unless someone changes something.
Again, please understand I am taking your words seriously, not trying to argue.
Me: 44 Him: 42 Together: 23 years; never married Bomb: August 1, 2009 Affair since May 2009 Walk away; no conversation; no process
Two weeks ago he sent an email link to an article of interest to me. I emailed and thanked him for it.
I sent a note to him about a project he was working on in town. No response.
I sent a photo of our goofy neighbor doing something goofy. No response until he came by the house to drop something off,and then wrote an email about the goofy thing.
Last Monday I sent a link about a VW van (he had several vans) Got a positive response.
I was thinking of sending a link to a youtube video about xcountry snowboarding (we snowboard) It's funny, it's light...it's making contact. Call it pursuing.
Silence is just more silence. More of the same.
what to subtly and gently change in our dynamics??
Me: 44 Him: 42 Together: 23 years; never married Bomb: August 1, 2009 Affair since May 2009 Walk away; no conversation; no process
Hi Avermont, I am certainly not the expert some of these gentlement are I am just trying to survive my own sitch day by day... but... based on some things I am slowly learning I'd like to offer a few thoughts:
Originally Posted By: avermont
Re: independent woman growth--I think it is growth to learn to ask for help (as I have been doing); to admit that I am not a towering pillar of strength and do need help/love; to admit that I am not self-contained, don't need no-one no-how sort of gal that I have presented. I'm not proposing I faint all over the place--but to admit to needing someone/something IS different for me.
I GAL; I have no contact; I do whatever is necessary to survive (AD meds, therapy, talking to friends, running) but haven't done anything to affect the R.
He is over there, and I am over here, and never the twain shall meet--unless someone changes something.
Again, please understand I am taking your words seriously, not trying to argue.
One thing I have learned/am learning... is that everything that seems to actually WORK is counter-intuitive. It feels like the exact opposite of what would make sense.
You say you have done nothing to affect the R? I don't believe that. By getting stronger, taking care of yourself, etc. .... it affects the R even if he doesn't see it day by day. You are becoming a different person.... a strong, confident, self aware woman who knows more of what she wants now. When you do interact with him, he will see this, even if he doesn't acknowledge it. That will be attractive to him.
I have read elsewhere on this forum that very few affairs last more than six months or so. He may seem "happily ensonced in his A" right now... but for how long? In the meantime, you are becoming one FABULOUS and ATTRACTIVE woman! (that is my mantra)
In the meantime.... yes keep the pathway back paved and smooth (as I believe Puppy puts it) with friendliness, polite interest etc. and when he is ready to see the A for what it really is (some temporary distraction), he will be able to see what he is missing in the new you!
that is my 2 cents for whatever it is worth... Rocked
