lost & confused, I know I'm chiming in late, but you sound a lot like me. (And BTW, I hope you're making a good recovery from your surgery and are feeling better.) As SillyOldBear said:
"....many of the themes of an SSM get repeated over and over. Other people will vent about their own marriages, and it seems like they're just venting, but as you've found, it's a good idea to read those posts because you'll find that you're not alone."
What I've done here, is copy and paste parts of other posts on this thread that I can relate to, and add my own comments.
lost & confused:
"I just remember him rarely approaching me, and when I approached him, at times (a lot of times) he would reject me."
Yes! The last time my H approached me for sex, and I felt like he really wanted it, was almost 3 months ago. He has approached me about 3 times since then but I've gotten the feeling he was only doing it to please me. I shouldn't complain (and I don't, to him - out loud, to him, I'll take what I can get) - but I feel kind of hurt when it seems like he's just trying to appease me. That hurts as much as when I approach him and he turns me down. I miss being pursued and desired. I've been lucky in the past - I've had men after me, had men hot for me, had men do downright crazy things out of lust for me. Maybe I got spoiled. Maybe that's why it's so hard for me now to be in this relationship with a LD man.
And the thing is, he wasn't always like this. Up until about 2 years ago, he was much more enthusiastic and pursued me and we had good sex on a frequent basis.
In my case, part of what happened is that I began work at a very demanding job. He's been upfront with me about his resentment of this - when I work late in the evenings, he resents doing a lot of the evening chores, and then I come home and want to have fun (i.e., be sexual.)
But it's good that he's told me this, at least he's given me something to work with. He also told me that he went to the doctor last week to have his testosterone levels checked, but has not gotten the results yet. (Last time we tried to ML, it was unsuccessful, and right afterwards, he said he might go to the doctor. I encouraged this [subtly, I hope].) So if he really did go to the doctor, and if he tells me the result, that will be more information to work with.
I like my job and do not especially want to change jobs, but if that's what it takes, I will look for something else. I cannot afford to quit working altogether. We need the money, and I need the health insurance. And frankly, I know when I do leave this job that I like, I'll feel resentment towards him. (He says, "You don't have to change jobs," but I'm not sure what else I can do. He won't change. The job won't change. I'm stuck in the middle. Either way I lose something - either the man I love, or the job I like. I've got two bad choices here.)
"For the most part, our marriage has been good. We have a lot of fun together (both have a crazy sense of humor) and share a lot of the same values."
Yes, this. This is why we're still together. We're both kind of quirky and intellectual and interested in weird things. We'd both have trouble finding another partner who would be so perfect on a mental level.
DanceQueen:
"I think that in general, people who are HD and feel that they are missing out on sex, are actually missing out on intimacy. As you probably know, physical intimacy is only one type of intimacy. But the other types of intimacy can be much more meaningful than the physical, so if they are missing it can be more painful than if the physical is missing."
Yes, this is true of me. I remember when DH and I were living in different cities and spending only weekends together, we spent the WHOLE weekend together. We did domestic stuff in our own separate apartments during the week, and did fun stuff together all weekend long. Now a lot of weekends, we just do chores and errands and sometimes don't spend much time together. And like many men, he's addicted to TV. I feel like I can't compete with the TV.
SillyOldBear:
"I went through all that analysis you see above and more without ever asking her whether I was on the right track. By the time we really talked through our sex-starved marriage and why it was not OK, I had years of her reasons and thoughts in my head, and most of them weren't real. They were the reasoning I'd come up with to explain to myself why my wife was punishing me by freezing me out of our marriage bed--why did she hate me so much? What had I done to be rejected and despised?
She had actually been wondering, when she bothered to think about our lack of a sex life at all, what the big deal was and why I seemed to take a perfectly normal end of a sex life between two married people so personally."
Yes, I think this sounds like me. I get over-analytical and I know I've been coming up with some wrong reasons for his LD. I've thought it was my weight (it's not - he says not, and I believe him; plus I've been losing weight steadily since July). I've wondered if he had another woman. (He says he doesn't and I believe him. If he's lying, then he deserves an Oscar.) I've thought maybe our relationship was just fizzling out, maybe he was falling out of love with me and I might get dumped soon. (He keeps saying he loves me, I'll never lose him, this is a permanent relationship, this is forever, etc. If he was planning to dump me, why on earth would he make it harder for himself by saying these things?)
No - he and I have talked about it, and it's my job that he doesn't like. And quite frankly, I think this sucks. This is the only job I've ever had that I actually like.
It isn't perfect; and frankly I'd be happier if I didn't have such a heavy workload. But yanno, we're in a recession right now; I have good benefits, and it's going to be hard to find something else with as good benefits. I'll look for another job, but 1) it's not going to be easy or quick to find one and 2) to be honest, I'm kind of pissed off and resentful about having to.
Lost & confused:
"You are right that when one is feeling rejection you look for answers. I am a very analytical person and want to figure out why something is happening, fix it, and move on.
He, on the other hand, just stuffs his feelings....He said I was thinking about it too much. That could be true, but I didn't admit it. Even if it was, it still doesn't solve the problem. I should know by now not to talk to him when he is tired. It gets me no where. I was in the mood to ML and he wasn't. It brought back some of those old feelings of hurt and rejection."
Again, I'm very analytical and he isn't as analytical as I am, so I'm in a similar situation, l & c. I want to try and solve the problem, and I do that by talking it out, but he might be right - I might think TOO much. And I know there's a real possibility of wearing him out by incessant out-loud analyzing, so I try to keep a lid on it.
"I have to admit, I told him that I was very lonely and that I didn't want to live out the rest of my life that way. I guess it was a threat. Not a good thing, I know."
I haven't outright said this to my DH, but I did once tell him when a good-looking man at work told ME that I looked good. I'm almost 46, but I look very damn good for my age (even if I do say so myself) and my work takes me to a courthouse frequently, where there are attractive, intelligent men all dressed up in suits....I'm a healthy straight female, I notice men, and I enjoy it when they notice me. I've been very tempted by some attractive attorneys.
It really feels awful to wonder if my sex life is over forever at the age of 46. I was hoping this might not happen for another 20 years or so. When my DH doesn't approach me for sex and turns me down when I approach him, I feel rejected and wonder what's wrong with me. I wonder if a man will ever be hot for me again. Then I go to court and get some admiring glances, and I feel better about myself and my attractiveness. But I don't want to cheat on my DH. I wish I could get that validation as an attractive woman from him, but I get so little from him that I'm really hungry for it, and I grab the crumbs I get in these admiring glances from attorneys at the courthouse.
SillyOldBear:
"I did fantasize about other women....When I felt like my wife didn't love me anymore, the fantasies were elaborate."
Yes, I find I'm doing this, too. I can have some very involved fantasies!
"....it all starts with being honest and insisting that what you want matters. You are not crazy. You are not abnormal. You are not being pushy. You can't have everything you want every moment, but you also can't be told that what you want isn't important."
Please keep telling us this! In fact, I should print that sentence out and tape it to my mirror or something.
Honestly, regarding the fantasies . . . they aren't as extensive as they were, but I still notice other women and do some daydreaming. And I have read that this is one of those things that really is markedly different for women and men in almost all cases--in fact, that when a woman and a man both say they fantasize, they're almost not talking about the same thing.
I remember a fairly in-depth interview with a transsexual who went from female to male--it aired on NPR a year or two ago. He described being attracted to women as a woman, but he said that nothing prepared him for the change in his sexuality when he took the male hormones before and after his surgery. He said that if, for example, he noticed a pretty girl on the train before, when he was a woman in every physical/chemical way, he would note her, wonder about her name and where she was from, maybe give her another look or two, and that would be it.
But after he started the male hormones, he said, the whole encounter would be different. As a man, if he noticed a pretty girl on the train, he would be pulled out of the moment and almost involuntarily forced into an elaborate and "truly pornographic" fantasy about her. I do think that part of the reason it hit him so hard--he described it as frightening--was that he hadn't developed his response to these fantasies since puberty the way men born as men do. But I never forgot his utter shock at the experience of a simple fantasy about a girl he would have been just as attracted to when he was a woman. It suggested that women have no idea how men experience sex or arousal. I realize everybody and his brother says this already, but that drove it home for me.
I think the thing that doesn't get mentioned here, that is either the best-kept secret or the unique thing about my marriage, is how utterly normal and unremarkable my wife thought the end of sex between us was. She looked at it as the Circle of Life. The sexual relationship is born when you're dating, dwindles upon marriage, and dies completely a couple of years in. Then you have sex when the spirit moves you, and if it never does, then you do something else instead. Perfectly normal, inevitable, and certainly nothing to get worked up about.
The HD half of the relationship has a very hard time grasping this. Even if their other half openly states that everyone's marriage inevitably ends up sex-free, they tend to think there's some hidden truth that's being covered up by this implausible lie.
"I think the thing that doesn't get mentioned here, that is either the best-kept secret or the unique thing about my marriage, is how utterly normal and unremarkable my wife thought the end of sex between us was. She looked at it as the Circle of Life. The sexual relationship is born when you're dating, dwindles upon marriage, and dies completely a couple of years in. Then you have sex when the spirit moves you, and if it never does, then you do something else instead. Perfectly normal, inevitable, and certainly nothing to get worked up about.
The HD half of the relationship has a very hard time grasping this. Even if their other half openly states that everyone's marriage inevitably ends up sex-free, they tend to think there's some hidden truth that's being covered up by this implausible lie."
Yes. DH says he loves me, says he wants us to be together forever. But I just can't get my mind around the concept of a lifelong relationship with no sex! I've learned that men are NOT perpetually horny, which is what I used to think. But why on earth would a man want to stay "forever" in a relationship with no sex? And how can you love someone and not want to have sex with them? I just don't get that at all....
I don't get it, either. I never did come to understand how it works. But you have to come to a sincere, in-your-gut realization that your spouse is capable of believing it, at least for now, even if you can never really understand how they could do it.
Because if that's the way he's thinking, and you're still thinking of him as a man who wants sex in the marriage, you can't help but go back to trying to figure out how you're inadequate. Even as you think it, you will sometimes think to yourself that you're not making any sense, but you'll still think the same things.
The other thing to remember is that it's just as hard for him to understand why sex is so important to you as it is for you to understand how he can go without it. His way of thinking seems to him the natural and maybe only way to think . . . just as yours seems to you (well, and me too.) In my marriage, I was trying to figure out why my wife would pretend that her sex drive was completely gone . . . and all I could come up with was that I wasn't attractive enough for her, and maybe I never had been--maybe she had lost her passion for me, or maybe she'd been faking it in the early days, knowing that she didn't want a sexual marriage but knowing that most men wouldn't accept that. At the same time, she was either avoiding thinking about our sex life because she doesn't enjoy confusion and guilt, or on the rare occasions when she thought about it, she was wondering why I would pretend that sex was this huge issue--what was I really upset about? Was it that she wasn't enough for me and I wanted out? Was it just that I thought I'd made a mistake marrying her? She didn't know, but she knew no one would really be so furious over a simple physical release like getting laid.
We didn't understand each other, and we tried to read each others' minds.
So . . . . are you still out there? Any news, good or bad?
I'm still here. I think things are still moving in the right direction. Did you read my two new posts (right before yours)? They sort of answer some of the questions you had.
OK, so DH went back to the doctor and he is going to continue with the Testosterone for now. I'm guessing it's because his was so low, plus the fact that he can tell a difference. The doctor said there is no way of knowing if he will need to be on it long term until he starts to go off of it. I asked him again the other day if he could tell a difference and he said yes. This time he seemed more sure. I know there are other factors that have played into his low desire...stressful job, money problems (although those are easing), the loss of several good friends (with another one terminally ill), etc. This is where we are different. When I'm stressed I want more sex, he is the opposite. I find it to be a great stress reliever, among other things.
He does initiate, usually at least twice a week. Before, I probably wouldn't have been satisfied with that, but the AD, as I said before, has dampened my desire somewhat. The other night we just laid next to each other for over an hour, just holding each other, and touching each other. It was amazing.
I think I'm at the point where I need to work on myself more. I've lost about 15 pounds, but have been stalled at my current weight for over a month. I'd like to lose about 15 more. I'm trying to keep myself busy and not constantly analyze and talk to him death. I'm trying to forget about the past, while learing from it. I'm not sure if that makes sense.
I still feel as if I'm needing more from him. I asked him if he would bring me flowers. He said he would. But, I haven't seen any yet. I don't want to pressure him to be something he isn't, yet I want to have my needs and wants met. How do you find that middle ground???? Overall, I am happier. Much happier than I was even a month ago. I do think the AD has reached a new level (if that's possible). It seemed to slowly work it's way into my system; and I'd see small changes in my thinking every few weeks.
How are things going with you SillyOldBear? I hope you are still seeing improvements in your marriage. Thanks for showing interest in my situation and for offering help.
[quote=Margali] Yes! The last time my H approached me for sex, and I felt like he really wanted it, was almost 3 months ago. He has approached me about 3 times since then but I've gotten the feeling he was only doing it to please me. I shouldn't complain (and I don't, to him - out loud, to him, I'll take what I can get) - but I feel kind of hurt when it seems like he's just trying to appease me. That hurts as much as when I approach him and he turns me down. I miss being pursued and desired. I've been lucky in the past - I've had men after me, had men hot for me, had men do downright crazy things out of lust for me. Maybe I got spoiled. Maybe that's why it's so hard for me now to be in this relationship with a LD man.
[b] Thank you so much for your input. I was so excited when I read your post as it does seem like we have a lot in common. I can really relate to the appeasal sex. It's like they're saying, "Well, I guess I have to do this, so let's just get it over with." Like you, I have had men desire me in the past. My first true love, my high school boyfriend (we were together six years!), was very passionate. He would tell me how hot I looked, how he thought about me, etc. Yes, we were young, but I don't care how old you are a woman still wants to feel wanted.[/b]
But it's good that he's told me this, at least he's given me something to work with. He also told me that he went to the doctor last week to have his testosterone levels checked, but has not gotten the results yet. (Last time we tried to ML, it was unsuccessful, and right afterwards, he said he might go to the doctor. I encouraged this [subtly, I hope].) So if he really did go to the doctor, and if he tells me the result, that will be more information to work with.
[b] This sounds hopeful! I think my DH was relieved when his came back so low. He had a reason for his LD. Something he could blame it on. Even though or LM was infrequent, it was always, always good. That's what I just never understood. In the past six months or so, he started having problems with maintaining an erection. I'm guessing that's what you are referring to when you say you were unsuccessful? Now that my DH is on the T, he doesn't have that problem. [/b]
I like my job and do not especially want to change jobs, but if that's what it takes, I will look for something else. I cannot afford to quit working altogether. We need the money, and I need the health insurance. And frankly, I know when I do leave this job that I like, I'll feel resentment towards him. (He says, "You don't have to change jobs," but I'm not sure what else I can do. He won't change. The job won't change. I'm stuck in the middle. Either way I lose something - either the man I love, or the job I like. I've got two bad choices here.)
[b] I think it would be a terrible spot to be in, having to choose between your dream job and your DH. Hopefully, you two can work out a compromise.[/b]
Yes, this. This is why we're still together. We're both kind of quirky and intellectual and interested in weird things. We'd both have trouble finding another partner who would be so perfect on a mental level.
[b] This is what kept me going all of those years. Knowing that we were so well matched in nearly every other way. And, knowing that anyone else would come with their own set of problems.[/b]
I'm about the same age as you (I'm 47), and like you, I feel as if I'm too young to have my sex life over! I crave attention from men. If a man looks at me a certain way, it does make me feel good, but I want that from him, not anyone else. He is not a jealous person at all. I once told him that a man could come over to our table and start kissing me and he'd just sit there. I mean seriously. I think some of this just comes from the fact that he takes me for granted. Some of that is good I know. But no one should expect to go through a marriage living like siblings. That is how I felt for so long.
Thanks for your input. I hope I have totally messed this up...I tried to put my reply in bold. If it doesn't work, I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Yes. DH says he loves me, says he wants us to be together forever. But I just can't get my mind around the concept of a lifelong relationship with no sex! I've learned that men are NOT perpetually horny, which is what I used to think. But why on earth would a man want to stay "forever" in a relationship with no sex? And how can you love someone and not want to have sex with them? I just don't get that at all....
Something worth noting here. I think LD men have a whole different set of problems than the LD women. Men know they are supposed to be thinking about sex all of the time. I'm sure they probably wonder what is wrong with them. Then, you have the part of them that wont go be checked out. You know how a lot of men are about going to dr's (especially when they have to talk about their men parts). I think it takes an ultimatim from their partner before they will take action. As a HD partner, by not acting we are in essence saying we are OK with things. I did a lot of pleading, pouting, an eventually started yelling before I finally said you have to get help.
I also think that some men do just naturally have a LD. And that it might not be a physical problem. But, when you pair them up with a HD woman, then you have a problem. In the past, I had a very high drive. In fact, it made me uncomfortable. I am much happier now that my desire is a bit lower. I'm sure the pressure has been taken off my DH some.
I think the LD spouse doesn't think the way the HD spouse does. Why would they want to leave the marriage? They are getting their needs met. I still don't get the why they wouldn't want to ML to someone they love. I have to believe that it's not just one thing. It's a whole lot of things when added up kill the desire. Stress, hormones, etc.
We will get through this. Just taking the first steps is a big leap. Hang in there.
I'm feeling pretty sad today. We just had 5 days in a row w/ no work, and didn't get anywhere near ML.
We did get in bed last night (undressed) and just cuddle for a while. I told him it didn't matter if things "happened" or not - and I meant it (although of course I *hoped* something would happen.) I told him, "no pressure, no expectations" - I'm trying to let go of the whole thing, back off, not be so clingy. But it's so hard. I want to grab him and rub myself against him and do things to him until he can't stand it and we end up ML. But I know that's a bad idea - what if, no matter what I do, he just doesn't get aroused? I don't do this, because I don't think I can take much more rejection.
It really sucks, too, to be a female in this culture where we're supposed to let the man lead, let it be his idea, etc. I feel like, it's okay for them to say what they want openly and pursue women, but we women, we could love somebody and want him to the point where it's killing us, and we STILL have to be quiet and demure and wait for him to make the first move. If we do anything else, we're "clingy" and "demanding" and "too obvious", etc. Have you noticed how all the relationship books in bookstores are addressed to women? It's "Women Who Love Too Much." There is no counter-book called "Men Who Don't Love Enough."
I'm trying to get to a point where I can let go....I'm re-reading some of the books I have about recovery and codependency. In the past, I've been one of those people who's afraid if I don't take matters into my own hands and force the issue, nothing will ever happen. Trying to "let go"....trying to back off from him, not rub up against him, not behave amorously, pretend I don't care if he wants me or not - this is almost impossible. I'm just not good at pretending and hiding my feelings.
I wish I could know for sure if we're ever going to be happy together again. I wish I could know for sure if my love and sex life really is over. If so, I could go through the pain - grieve, mourn, etc. - and then just get ready to be an old lady. Not knowing what's going to happen is just about killing me.
Lost, I'm SO glad you turned up here! I need another woman like me to talk to. Part of the problem is that I haven't been able to talk to anybody about this.
You sound a lot like me, so I'm going to say some things to you that other people said to me when I sounded that way.
First, although it isn't going to make you feel a lot better, you have to understand that you can't completely take away pressure and expectations. The fact that you have to tell him there are no expectations tells him that there are. He knows what you want (I'm assuming there--but he does know what you want, right?) and he knows that you're hoping it will happen. The pressure stays on him. As long as the couple is trying to pass as "normal" and pretend there's no problem, most of the pressure and heartache falls on the HD partner. But once you try to do something about it, the LD partner feels most of it shift onto his shoulders. I used to get so frustrated (well, I guess I still do) with trying to take pressure off my wife. It's like asking someone not to think of a rhinoceros. You're picturing a rhinoceros right now, aren't you? That's the bad news. The good news is that the longer you stick with it, the more the pressure will ease for him. In the early stages the LD partner feels like he's trapped and being beaten up--like he's been given an ultimatum, and he's got to perform where he failed for years, or his marriage will end. It's not easy for them, but it's hard for us to see it at the time or sympathize much because we're angry and scared, too. As that eases, you'll begin to see more of this.
The only ways I found past this dilemma were time and focus on myself. Putting in the time sounds simple, but in practice it's hard to do, because you worry that you're wasting time on one more idea that won't work. This place is important for reinforcing what you're doing. The truth is I don't know to this day whether the ideas in the SSM book are all that magical, or whether what really mattered was that I picked an approach and stuck to it because I had a community here to help me and listen to my rantings. But by all means, come here and write about what's happening and what you're feeling, even if you think no one is reading it that day. Just do it anyway. The other thing that's important is to focus on yourself. Push yourself to do the "Get a Life" thing--go back to doing some things just because you enjoy them, especially things you've given up over the years. Do things to make yourself happy without your husband. Push the things you like about yourself, and work on the things you don't. The ideal is to get to a point where you're happy with your life and you want to share that happiness with him, not look to him to make you happy. You're probably tired of hearing that by now--I know I was--but it's true. You have to start treating him as one part of your life. A big part, but just one part, not the one who decides whether you're happy or miserable. It's hard to understand because we're all bombarded every day with the message that love isn't real if you aren't gasping with desperate obsession over your idol. We're taught that real love just happens, that some force outside you declares that You Will Be In Love With This Person, and then it is so. We're taught that you couldn't possibly end it if you wanted to . . . . but that's not true.
I don't want to give you advice on taking the lead vs. letting him take the lead. If he needs to be in the lead and you can handle that, then maybe that's what you should do. I will tell you what my own experience has been, though. I've been working for a couple of years now on taking the lead in my marriage, trying to "man up." I was thinking about this just a couple of days ago, actually. I really was controlled by my wife and I really did need to put the brakes on and take some of my life back. But at the same time, it's exhausting having to be constantly asserting your authority in a relationship. I want to get to a balance of give and take that makes sense for us. I think maybe that's what you're looking for, too. But a sensible balance in anything is always the hardest state to maintain.
(Two paragraphs of angry ranting about an upcoming discussion of a decision I've made have been deleted here--there's no point in putting them in your thread. Still don't have that balance figured out yet.)
