My husband is a pleaser to the detriment of his own pleasure in life. He will tell people what they want to hear and it isn't out of manipulation. He wants to believe it too. I really think that the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book that Luckygirl has mentioned would be well-suited for H but I have to wait for a time when he tells me / realizes even a little that his "Nice Guy" status is getting in the way of achieving what he wants.
I agree with Lucky -- he's got it bad, especially with the "he will tell people what they want to hear" stuff. We can't reoommend other websites here, so I would instead recommend that you Google the phrases "Nice Guy Syndrome" and "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and do a little research (ignoring the Alice Cooper song ). There is even advice out for the the wives / GF's of Nice Guys about how to encourage your man to find and embrace the 'harder' (and sexier) aspects of his masculinity.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Lamby - you said: (We can leave for a later date the possibility that I prefer a sexual relationship with someone who doesn't treat me well but ... oooooph I'm not ready for that can of worms yet if that can does in fact contain those worms).
I just want to point out that, it is very VERY typical for women to want a man to "bring her out" of her shell, and also very typical for a woman to WANT to be roughed up a little bit. Pull my hair. Shove me up against a wall and grope my breasts. Talk dirty to me when I'm getting close to getting off....
So look - try not to think of it in terms of a man who "doesn't treat you well". It may be that you did date men who didn't treat you well and had good sex with them, but trust me that its not the mistreatment that is a turn on.
Its "the pirate factor".
GOOD men can be pirates, too. They are not all jerks.
Anyway put to bed the notion that there may be anything to delve into in that area, the "mistreatment" isn't what women are truly after. They are after being manhandled by a man who knows how to manhandle. Big difference, and very common. I can't think of any straight (or bi) woman who doesn't want to be manhandled, and I actually know a lot of gay women who want it but can't "go there" because they are gay...but still fantasize about it!
It is common and universal. So feel normal and happy, ok?
DQ, once again amazing, reassuring, insightful advice. So many thanks. Yes yes and yes. I agree on all counts. I've gotten through Chapter 1 of Passionate Marriage and it suggests that "old stuff" doesn't need to be delved into first before addressing issues in the marriage -- that those things can be addressed when and if they arise but they don't HAVE to be dug up for digging up sake. Also, I've been thinking a little bit about the passion in prior relationships and craziness and I think it was also just related to taking BC pills so I'll just chalk all that up to youthful manic hormones and address the matter at hand.
W/o having really any substantive discussions other than the "how many times do you want to ML" and clearing up that our sex drives are probably mostly compatible H was much more aggressive and comfortable this weekend w/ ML. He already knows to pull my hair and doesn't seem to take issue with it which is good.
I feel normal and happy, yeah!
And I mentioned the NMMNG book and my husband said that he is interested in reading it. At least he's a Nice Guy enough to want to read all these books w/ me.
Lastly, I thought I would mention b/c I thought it was interesting that PM discusses the biological vs emotional / intimacy reasons for ML and I think that I really have my own work to do on connecting with the emotional / intimacy aspects of sex. I am going to have to learn to let myself go -- stop being so controlling and allow myself to truly to be close to and vulnerable with my life partner. Easier said than done. I need to develop a plan!
Lamby said: "I am going to have to learn to let myself go -- stop being so controlling and allow myself to truly to be close to and vulnerable with my life partner. Easier said than done. I need to develop a plan!"
This part is difficult for a lot of people, I think. I am glad you are aware of it within yourself. Some people are not that aware they are doing it, but actually have a real problem with it.
A lot of people will disguise their inability to let go, within their insecurities. For instance, "I don't want to get intimate because I feel fat" is a frequent excuse by both men and women, even if they never say it out loud. But when it is really examined, usually this is just code for "I am using my insecurity about my weight as an excuse to not let myself go into the deeper parts of myself and share them with my partner".
I know this one well because I used to use it all the time. Not really feeling fat, but other insecurities. Thank goodness Mr.DQ basically bitch slapped that one out of my head. He just refused (after a certain point) to allow me to "withhold" myself from him. I wasn't even aware I was doing that...I thought I had justifiable insecurities that would make anyone not want to get naked.
But ... it was all in my head, in a very complex web or maze I had created, in order to avoid intimacy. Meanwhile, I was starved for intimacy, begging for it, and claiming to the world that I was not receiving it, for reasons beyond my own control.
I'm so glad I woke up to smell the coffee...because it was MY issue, and therefore I COULD FIX IT!
Had it not been something of my own creation, it had less of a chance to be fixed.
Keep looking within!
Sounds like your H is going to easily get on board with all of this (over time) and you will both discover some pretty amazing things about yourself on this path. You will be amazed, in fact. You will find out things about life, love, the world, passion, sex, intimacy, and even anger and rage...that you never would have thought possible to all be boxed up in your own mind, shelved and labled "do not open this box". Once you find out that the label is a trick and you are SUPPOSED to defy it and open the box, your life will be new and amazing.
You know, lamby, I also have a hard time letting go. The thing that helps me the most is to practice putting myself out there with H.
On certain days, I try to think of doing something meaningful that night or that weekend. It could be initiating a make-out session or discussing something that I've never shared with him before. Anything intimate. It doesn't have to be sex-related.
Little by little, with practice and with a responsive H, you and I will both soften in this area. It is up to us to stay aware and keep pushing through it.
I'm writing this so I can remember what I was thinking ...
I think that "blame" or "responsibility" is not 50/50 but 100/100 (which is statistically impossible, I know). It is a "chicken and egg problem" -- which is the real root: my distancing and unwillingness to truly be intimate or H's lack of initiation? Probably neither on its own. But I have the ability to change my end of the story, my contribution. Will changing my behavior change everything? No, but it will change something! I am working on being more affectionate on a daily casual basis -- like touching H's arm or giving him a kiss at a red light while we're in the car. And I really trying not to be critical of him (even in non-sexual situations).
I'm actually being serious. I'm not like a full-on bitch but I THINK that I undermine. Anyway, I just think it is just something I need to keep an eye on -- I need to be very aware of how often I might be doing it. I have this feeling that if someone video recorded my day, I would see that I'm worse than I realize. It is just a hunch. And H never fights back - I think I partly just hope he pushes back but he won't.
Will changing my behavior change everything? No, but it will change something! I am working on being more affectionate on a daily casual basis -- like touching H's arm or giving him a kiss at a red light while we're in the car. And I really trying not to be critical of him (even in non-sexual situations).
I believe these are great things to try. More contact is often a good way to increase closeness. But I think that the second part might be even more important.
Your husband is a guy. Since he is, there are going to be many, many things that you could be critical of. But constant, contemptuous criticism is very destructive to intimacy. Trust me, I know about it because I was on the receiving end of it, non-stop, for years. Nitpicking tends to make guys shut down, and feel like they can't do anything right - so why bother?
Think about what he needs to change that is really important to you. Then limit your criticism to only those things. Replace the other criticism with Notice, Appreciation, and Praise. Let your husband know that you care about him, and why you think he is great. You could do this so easily, and it can make such a big difference. I really hope you'll give it a try.
Think about it: do you want him to be perfect (he never will be!) or do you want to have a great love life?
Last edited by Vigilant1; 06/30/0904:34 PM.
ME: 46/W:44 M: 6 years S: 4 Bomb: 1/20/09 SSM 2004-present marital therapy began 2/09 neither of us want divorce.. yet
). There is even advice out for the the wives / GF's of Nice Guys about how to encourage your man to find and embrace the 'harder' (and sexier) aspects of his masculinity.