What's it really all about?

[AlexEN]

What I’ve come to realize is that for me The Fear is what we are about to tell the children (that we will be getting a D) and my belief that it will forever change their lives…

@Smiley, as he so often does, captured the weight of that Fear when he wrote about it a couple of weeks ago:

It's incomprehensible to me. Knowing what's coming - wondering what the looks on their faces will be, what the ache in their little hearts and tummies will be, how confused and frightened and abandoned and betrayed they're going to feel – makes my head spin…

And while I think SP, nobly perhaps, took more of the blame than I am willing to in my sitch, something else he wrote then resonates loudly after having read the cards my children made for me this Father’s Day weekend:

I feel so inhumane, so profoundly guilty that our failure to meet each others’ adult needs also has to be so terribly, terribly destructive of their child-needs.

I finally realized that it is that fear and the guilt that it engenders with which I am consumed.

But, I know, too, that it just doesn’t matter how sure I am that I am right ... It just doesn’t matter.

Just as sure as I am of this (that there is another path we could take), so, too is W sure she has to leave our marriage.

And, she’s right... THAT marriage had to die and SHE has to leave; and I accept that she no longer wants ANY M with me or to take a chance on US again.

Yet, if I’m being honest with ME, I don’t love the person in HER body anymore (the lust hasn’t gone away, but that’s not love, but I digress…). She is NOT the girl I fell in love with 25 years ago. I do NOT love the person she believes she has become. She does NOT love the person I have become. She chooses NOT to love the person I have become.

So, similar to thoughts that @SP, @Thinker, @A&K and others have expressed recently, I’ve also come to realize that what I’ve been “fighting” for, at least in the most recent past, has been for our family, not for WAS nor for me.

Do I believe we could have a fantastic R? Yes. Do I think it would be easy? No. Do I think she will ever question herself or her decisions? Don’t know, but I do know it won’t be soon. Do I have any control over her? Zippo. Can I DB any longer? Yes, but for ME, not to win her back.

So, am I becoming, in a sense, a WAS myself as I realize I need to move on despite the heartache I never wanted my children to feel. W will be fine and I will be fine, but, the “greater good” will not have been served. Do they deserve to suffer the consequences of our failings? No, but I guess they have no choice... and that, my friends, $ucks.

@A&K’s recent posts about narcissism raise the interesting question about how much of one’s “selfishness” (in the non-Smiley sense) is intrinsic versus extrinsic, but I digress... again... although it is a topic I want to remember to revisit.

I have plenty of faults; I’m working on me, for me; but can’t quite come to Smiley’s Place and say it is All About Me, although I fully grasp the nuance of his assertion. It’s within the realm of “Easier said than done” that I find myself getting tripped up. And that gets back to some of the $hit in my R with W. We used to joke that “she was right about everything and I was never right about anything”, but that spoke to an attitude not the reality.

Her confidence that she is never wrong (or personality trait that does not allow her to ever be wrong, as our MC, now my IC, suggested is the case) allows her to come across as very convincing even when her assertions, upon further review, might have everyone around her scratching their heads; on the flipside, I could be certain of something, yet still willing to hear the counterpoint. Not a good combo.

And, yeah, @Coach and @Gucci, I know that it wasn’t particularly attractive either. [Aside to @Puppy: I think it’s the “Good Guy” co-dependency/enmeshment ‘thang.]

That’s the me $hit I’ve been working on; but, and in doing that Work, it’s lead me to a place where I realize, while I love W, I am not in love with her anymore (sound familiar?); I AM in love with the “idea” of our family and am saddened by the traditions that will be lost, but without W being a willing participant in OUR intact family, it is not a family (my purpose now is not to debate broken vs. dented families) as I desire it to be…


To be continued...

[AlexEN]

Okay, and I know responding to my own post may not be proper DB board protocol, but what’s my point?

I am not entirely sure, other than that I think that in order to effectively co-parent my children in the future, and because I think it’s still too soon to tell what form friendiness may or may not take with W, I do know that the closest target, the one that says to do what’s right for the kids (@Mules’ “Strength and Honor”), is the one that needs my focus.

As paradoxically as it seems to me, as I’ve thought about this, I’ve come to the conclusion that, W and I have to work on communications and re-establishing some level of trust in each other purely on the face level – not because I want to manipulate her into coming back to our marriage, but simply because it is what is needed to co-parent the kids (and, in this sense, I think “need” is appropriate).

I want to convey this to W and that’s a tricky thing to do; as others have pointed out, while there’s a not-so-subtle distinction between making changes on the placating/convincing level as compared to, borrowing SP’s definition, the selfish level, we don’t know how what we say or write will be perceived.

How can I do this given where we stand?

But, before any of you answer, let me try to set the stage just a little bit more…

Many weeks ago, after a heated exchange, I sent an e-mail to W saying:

...even though I think you are being as I uncouthly (the term selfish bit$h was said, but with deep affection) described this morning, I forgot to mention the flipside...

You're still the best friend I've ever had... I will miss that.

Her response (which is tempting to parse, but doing so is irrelevant at this point):

I wish you didn't have to miss that. You're making me cry again. I know you don't believe it, but I would like for us to remain best friends. I know you don't trust me now, but I really am not a pathological liar. What I did felt it was out of self-preservation, and although that's not justifiable, it was what I had to do at the time. It's not a way of life for me, and I wish you would believe that.

My initial response was:

It isn’t hard to believe, but it doesn’t change that it is the way you chose to end our marriage. Perhaps time will make a difference but ending our marriage this way (by having an affair, lying about it, and refusing to work on our marriage) makes friendship, let alone BFFs, seem a lofty goal. (Obviously, I will try to always remain cordial, polite and civil toward you, and hope we will be able to work together to co-parent our children effectively). If, however, you had truly tried to work on the marriage (including meaningful counseling), and then if things still hadn't worked out, then yes, I thought we would always remain good friends, but friends just don't do the things we’ve done to each other and remain best friends.

*******

Lastly, we’ve talked about doing the New Beginning Workshop (it’s like Retrouvaille, but with less of a religious bent); and I realize, as @Thinker reminded another poster recently, should generally only be considered as a welcome step IF both parties are receptive to wanting to work on the marriage.

I think W thinks I’m still trying to save our marriage; as that was my motive when I originally suggested Retro or NB many months ago. Saving the marriage is no longer my goal, but I do think we can learn some valuable lessons from such a workshop for our next R but, just as importantly, learn some tools for communicating with each other in order to be better co-parents.

In that sense, while I have become ambivalent about saving our marriage, perhaps I AM being “manipulative”, because I cannot fathom how we can co-parent unless she, too, is willing AND able to work on communicating respectfully with each other. So, that is my real request of her.

And, I guess the real question to those in DB-Land is whether or not that is a question even worth asking at this point or is it akin to asking her to work on the marriage no matter how pure the motive may be?

Thanks,

AlexEN

[aliveandkicking]

If D was just an event that you endure and live through, this would be an easier task. But, in reality, D is more like having a family member (maybe demented uncle or something) who requires management and care despite the diminished positive returns. D is a lifestyle...an octopus with tentacles.

I loathe the idea of managing my R with H for the rest of my days...but for the sake of my children (they love those demented uncles)...I will have to find a way.

Caveat- Of course, if H (AKA demented Uncle), turned around and decided he wanted to devote himself to me and our M and our family, he would immediately morph into the man of my dreams...why? Just because he wants to be here?

As I told H, he was a train-wreck, but he was my train-wreck. Are we chasing train-wrecks? Or, are we the train-wrecks...

No, I'm not stoned, just bored.

[aliveandkicking]

as @Thinker reminded another poster recently, should generally only be considered as a welcome step IF both parties are receptive to wanting to work on the marriage.

Many couples go to Retrouvaille with one person wanting to save the marriage and one wanting out. The only expectation is that both participants are "willing and open"...the WAS does not have to want to work on the marriage just not go in closed minded (although I've read some interesting stories about that too).

[Puppy Dog Tails]

What I’ve come to realize is that for me The Fear is what we are about to tell the children (that we will be getting a D) and my belief that it will forever change their lives…

@Smiley, as he so often does, captured the weight of that Fear when he wrote about it a couple of weeks ago:

It's incomprehensible to me. Knowing what's coming - wondering what the looks on their faces will be, what the ache in their little hearts and tummies will be, how confused and frightened and abandoned and betrayed they're going to feel – makes my head spin…

And while I think SP, nobly perhaps, took more of the blame than I am willing to in my sitch, something else he wrote then resonates loudly after having read the cards my children made for me this Father’s Day weekend:

I feel so inhumane, so profoundly guilty that our failure to meet each others’ adult needs also has to be so terribly, terribly destructive of their child-needs.

I finally realized that it is that fear and the guilt that it engenders with which I am consumed.

God, that is SO true, Alex. That is EXACTLY the point at which my wife and I keep backing away from the abyss, too!

Puppy

[AlexEN]

What I’ve come to realize is that for me The Fear is what we are about to tell the children (that we will be getting a D) and my belief that it will forever change their lives…

@Smiley, as he so often does, captured the weight of that Fear when he wrote about it a couple of weeks ago:

It's incomprehensible to me. Knowing what's coming - wondering what the looks on their faces will be, what the ache in their little hearts and tummies will be, how confused and frightened and abandoned and betrayed they're going to feel – makes my head spin…

And while I think SP, nobly perhaps, took more of the blame than I am willing to in my sitch, something else he wrote then resonates loudly after having read the cards my children made for me this Father’s Day weekend:

I feel so inhumane, so profoundly guilty that our failure to meet each others’ adult needs also has to be so terribly, terribly destructive of their child-needs.

I finally realized that it is that fear and the guilt that it engenders with which I am consumed.

God, that is SO true, Alex. That is EXACTLY the point at which my wife and I keep backing away from the abyss, too!

Puppy

Puppy,

I wish it would make her take a step back, too, but that's not in the cards; it's just another thing on her checklist... "Tell kids, get on with it."

The conversation will happen; my task is to fight the Fear so I can be strong for the kids.

-AlexEN

-AlexEN

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I know. The typical LBS thinks "The kids'll be devastated!" and the typical WAS thinks "Kids are resilient! They'll be fine."

[givingitmyall]

Alex, reading your posts makes me think my W is married to you too!

It also made me realize where most of my fear and guilt come from. Having been a child of divorce (W too as "funny" as that is), I NEVER wanted to put my children through this...and still don't. I, and I am sure MANY others here, compleely understand what you are feeling b/c it is EXACTLY what I feel.

Right now, I view the whole thing as if I am watching a train wreck about to happen, one I cannot stop.

[givingitmyall]

Right out of the WAS playbook. Heard it too.

[aliveandkicking]

I just called the New Beginning Workshop. Aside from the price, it sounded great.

According to the person I spoke with, most couples come in with one partner saying they are "done," many having filed already. I don't know what that means for us but it was interesting.