"Exposure" vs. "Shame"

[fightingirish]

Hey Mark!! I was just thinking about you! Im sorry also that things didn't work out. Im glad that you found a good Therapist. We missed you!!

Irish (aka TAL)

[25yearsmlc]

Sorry to say, but most marriages that arrive at this site, (DB) are going to end no matter what the LBSer does. But there are enough happy endings and personal growth stories and "survival tips," to make it well worth spending time here anyhow. It's damn hard to know what to do when you see that statistic & choose to say "screw it, I'm DBing anyhow..." as reflected by my signature, I'm here to say that DBing can and did work for me...but even if it had not worked out that way, I've learned a lot and still am.

RE: This Thread---
I made my case for not using shame as a weapon in M for a lot of reasons, including not being in line with my own religious views, and my belief that it's Not effective in getting a reconciliation or truly "restoring" a marriage in the long run. (For those comfortable with Christian literature, I strongly suggest a book called "Blue Like Jazz" which is also written with a lot of wit, but It's geared for believers and non-believers who are curious about faith and what to "do" with it in our lives.. fyi). And it's what prompted me to post about all this in the first place & to look at my own flaws and the response to the book it provoked.

By training, I try to be precise with my wording. So let's be clear about what we/you each are saying & to what we are responding. The word "shame" is key to my position on not using it. So when some of you post disagreeing about a "bo peep" approach or some other point of view that I don't actually hold, it fogs up the real discussion.

For instance, when it comes to an LBSer confronting the adulterer, I never argued that an LBSer shouldn't ever confront the adulterer/WAS. There may be times you don't have to --(e.g., b/c they were going to confess to you or were ending the A themselves ) but that's a far cry from telling people to "lie for the cheater" ? (never said that either). I'm hardly the "bo peep" type either. (What is the bo peep approach anyhow? Is it hiding your head in the sand? Never suggested that either...) (Sigh)

I realize you don't mean that to insult, but it gets us off track so let's narrow down what is actually in dispute here, okay? If someone IS advocating a "bo peep" approach then let them make their case. [/i]But it is simply not mine to argue.

In sum, I thought we needed clarification of what we agree on and what we are actually debating. Narrowing down the actual area of dispute, should help us to resolve that which can be resolved.

Also, we need to remember that our own marital or divorce experience is not universal, even when it seems some WAS have a "script" of sorts, but we cannot project our anger or sitch's onto others, e.g., "no, not all men are selfish, not all cheaters are repeaters" etc., if you kwim.

Projecting our anger at our own sitch onto someone else's - is destructive. That is exactly why DB suggests not discussing some things with people who don't "get standing for" a M. Plus it does not help the person who is trying to reconcile either.
So please let's be more aware and disclose it when that happens to us or is done by us. It's human, certainly, but we have to be aware of it.

Finally, if someone here has not read the DB books yet, they should. This is a DB site. Whether you agree or not, at least know the frame of reference we have, (and also the numerous acronymns.)
That's the two cents I have for now. Hope this helps clears up some things.
( j )

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Hi 25,

I coined the term "Little Bo-Peep" approach to refer to the theory that if you simply leave them (the cheating pair) alone, the affair will die its own natural death, without any outside intervention, and that it's in fact BEST to just leave it alone, and work on yourself. It is pretty much the conventional wisdom on this site.

You know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind you."

In any event, I think I said in one of my posts above that I wasn't referring at all to you with this, nor do I think Mark is (although he can speak for himself).

I don't think it's far off-topic, though, because this approach pretty much is the antithesis of the "confront/expose" that you and I were debating.

Puppy

[RustyShackleford]

...nor do I think Mark is (although he can speak for himself).

Puppy

Well, permit me to...

I have not exposed my wife's first extramarital relationship to anybody within a 25 mile relationship (yeesh, "affair" sounds to romanticized for my taste... we need a different term). I have told none of her family (siblings, cousins, etc.), none of my family (though they DO suspect). I have not told the neighbors, nor have I told anybody at church. For a couple of reasons.

First, I didn't want to do it out of revenge. Sirach 28: "The vengeful will suffer the Lord's vengeance, for He remembers their sins in detail." Yikes. Doesn't sound too appealing to me. Second, we all know that you can't "unring" a bell. Once the bell is rung, the sound is out there. I wanted to be deliberate and expose the initial extramarital relationship for the right reasons. I never had a good one, so I didn't (she is now running around on me, staying out all night, and the kids know about this, so, as I see it, it's open season on this info).

Anyway, my point has nothing to do with exposing the extramarital activities, and everything to do with standing up for what's right, and not tolerating disrespectful behavior. If, in the course of standing up for yourself and what is right, the adulterous relationship is exposed, then so be it. But I do disagree with exposing for the sake of exposing. Sounds to vengeful too me.

Just my opinion...

[karen43]

Anyway, my point has nothing to do with exposing the extramarital activities, and everything to do with standing up for what's right, and not tolerating disrespectful behavior.

Mark, you were one of the people that really helped me out so much when I found myself here, just so depressed, and you were one of the main people who really helped me out. I think DB and the knowledge that I did need to stop tolerating disrespectful behavior really was important for me. I'm so glad to see you here now so I can thank you!

I didn't tell anyone for the longest time about my H's A, but once I did start telling my friends, it was really good for me. I would like to think it wasn't vengeance, but it was hard on me before I told, keeping secrets for H and basically lying (like when I got asked all the time where H was and I knew he was out with OW) and I would cover that up. I felt so much better when the truth was out. How are you doing and what's going on with you? I hope you will start your own thread and give us an update? But just glad to hear from you! Karen

[Yoyowife]

Okay here are my thoughts. For a long time I didn't tell anyone about the affair because I didn't want to "jepordize" our reconciliation attempts. Then I realized he was telling people outrageous untruths about me such as I never cooked, cleaned, etc. Maybe those areas were not up to par of a Stepford wife, but I work full time and did a pretty good job. So it got to when people asked me what happened I told them that he decided his secretary was more important than his family. Enough said...they didn't say much more. Vindictive? Perhaps, but I also looked at as defending myself and letting them know he wasn't the poor mistreated soul he tried to pretend he was.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Or, as I like to say, "I won't play offense, but I'm DAMNED sure gonna play DEFENSE."

Puppy

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Yoyo, and others,

OUCH! I followed your thread a long time and I'm sorry you are in this sitch. What a jerk your h was to do that. Of course if the idiot cheater is lying about YOU...all bets are off. "Defense!!", oh yeah, and don't think I'm suggesting any other way of handling that type of thing. I'm not.

But most of you are not reconciled so...isn't it possible that of those who are back together, privacy made it easier? Just food for thought.

I'm "proposing" 3 factors to deal with: 1-consider the collateral damage of exposure very carefully, 2-examine your real motives, and 3-decide if this is going to hurt or harm your chances of reconciling b/c I do think that matters and it does not involve hiding things, it means keeping them private. (If you know you won't reconcile, and no innocents would be harmed...I can see some very creative ways and reasons to expose...oh yeah...)

OTOH, Kev4 wants his wife back big time. So he exposed his w's A to all her family and work and it backfired. W's family thinks poorly of him anyhow so then they saw him as also vindictive and that the M was "over anyhow already", etc. and his wife hated him for it, (but his case is unusual and we can't use one anecdote to "prove" anything). And we are not trying to "prove" anything are we? Aren't we all just trying to support the restoration of marriages? Or alternatively, surviving a horrible loss...?

And supporting people in becoming the best that they/we can become. You all are using the words exposure and you are not using the word "shame" and I appreciate that distinction.

But In most of these cases discussed tonight, the idiots exposed themselves,!! (if you will), so shame is what the idiots MUST feel to be such awful fools...good grief. SIGH...


J-

PS Puppy can you check stuck's thread for my post there so I don't repeat myself. Wanted to share something with you there...

[Sara]

I, for one, exposed the affair to my kids and it ended. My kids were in the age range of 18-23 at the time. Not little kids. Old enough to have relationships of their own and have ideas about how relationships should be. I am a strong proponent of exposure, not necessarily to the kids, but each case must be judged by its own circumstances. I know what I did in my case not only worked but it was the right approach. I didn't shame my husband. He shamed himself. And we reconciled better than ever with a little help from retrouvaille.

[25yearsmlc]

Yay - am glad you are together!

Would love to hear more about retrovaille for several people around. Is there a site here for it?

Also am very glad things worked out for you. Good to see stories like that on this board. Really. Obviously the kids' ages matter and though my m issue with my h was diff, now that we are reconciled the lasting issue remains with H and our d20. How are the R's between your kids and H, and is there some "repair plan" that your h is on, to help the r's?

D20 says she is working on forgiveness to let h "back into her heart" but a lot of damage was done. Just b/c he and I work things out, does not mean it's all well and good between h and the kids. Lately We did have a great trip overseas to see d20 in a show and then went vacationing together and there was some tension at the start, and then h and I had a serious discussion and he wanted to "finish strong" and he did, & there was some good bonding...DB coach says to encourage the R's but not take responsibility for them and I know it's a balancing act. How is that for you? Are any of the kids near or in the home? How does h feel about his R's with them? Do you worry that your son (or d) might repeat the behavior or do you think the opposite?

It's one thing to know what not to do, it's a whole other thing to know what TO DO...we (and the kids) need positive role models so that in times of crisis, we'll have something to fall back on other than the wrong choices. Did Retrovaille provide that for you? Here in our sitch I think it's crucial that h and I model that for the kids so they can learn what forgiveness looks like. Am still learning what it looks like as I did not see it much as a kid. Not much at all when I really think about it. Lot of yelling, and then retreats...and the next day resumption of the same argument. No conflict resolution.

Again, congrats and am very glad to see a happy ending here...

(( j ))