"Exposure" vs. "Shame"

[25yearsmlc]

Here is what I originally posted and I used the word "Shame", b/c of a great book on religious faith that a minister recommended and I had just finished reading, called "Blue Like Jazz"....and I chose that word for a reason. In the book, the author, who IS a Christian, points out ways religion has been and is being misused by so called Christians to..."win" arguments, to be "proved right" or get their way, or to feign piety and use it as an excuse to condemn or shame people, and to manipulate. The book resonated with me and in some parts, I saw myself.

It was not posted to Puppy, but to someone else. And another person found it very helpful and they were an "almost WAW" and she said that if her h had tried to guilt her OR GO PUBLIC with "EXPOSURE" that she would NOT have come home. She can speak for herself though, but she has spoken at length with Puppy about this already.

Finally, before posting this, let me say that I do not recommend a "bo peep" approach and never have (PT, do you hear anything at all smug in that remark? Anything a tiny bit condescending? And the word "rant" you use to describe my posts...why not just say "hysterical", or accuse me of being in "that time of the month"? Yes it was offfensive.)

Here's what I was posting to someone else...when Puppy posted his response which you already have.


**"Most LBSers at some point try to guilt or shame the WAS into coming home. We say "How could you?" and "This is immoral, wrong, selfish, a SIN, against God's will, etc." (I know I did.)
I have given a lot of thought to this. Here's my opinion and it is based on personal experience) SHAME and why it sucks for all[/u][/color]
Shaming a WAS into "trying again" ALWAYS FAILS IN THE LONG RUN, EVEN IF THE WAS COMES HOME[/b]... yes I mean that literally. No couples reconcile for good, and I mean RECONCILE, (I don't mean move back in the home b/c true restoration of the M and real reconciliation mean a lot more than living under the same roof... You will find people here who urge you to condemn, EXPOSE the SINNER, and then they use GOD as a weapon for that. I say Shame on THEM.
How on earth will your h ever come home (in the true meaning of the word) [i]to a woman with her arms crossed in judgment, who says "Yeah I "FORGIVE" you BUT... [everyone knows...]"

I speak from experience on this, okay? Been there, done that. I Felt "right" to be the way I was, but I not happily married.

Instead we LBSers need to welcome the WAS home with a model of forgiveness that says "Yes we can start fresh and no I won't throw this in your face, ever, and now, moving on....and btw, I was at fault PLENTY and am working on MY stuff too, and thank YOU for forgiving ME" and mean it.
IMO, No WAS who feels shamed into coming home, will again feel loving, or warm or affectionate or attracted towards the source of the shame. And that source of the shame won't be the WAS' past action or OP. At some point, the source of the shame IS the LBSer. I see this particularly for the LBSer who guilts the WAS into returning by misusing God or religion, or family/societal approval to get the WAS back.
They "expose" the sinner to shame and while they claim to forgive, it is NOT the real kind of forgiveness modelled by Christ (and those of other religions who really forgive). It is the kind of fake forgiveness wherein the LBSer acts as if they are the sole victims of a problematic M, and wear their "forgiveness" as a badge of sainthood, and are smug about it often, so you cannot ever disagree with them due to their moral superiority and they feel OWED by the WAS and blah blah blah and might throw it in their face or LOOK LIKE THEY ARE ABOUT TO, every time a conflict arises....so many LBSers do this and wonder why the WAS finds someone else, or simply leaves again, for good. [/color]

To me, that is the shame of this all. And if this does not apply to you or only in part, fine. Just wanted to post it.

THE END

I use Corinthians for my biblical guide, and my DBing coach and my pro-M t, and whatever else strikes me as loving and useful and NOT ever punitive or judgmental. I'm a sinner and I won't forget that. I'm NOT my h's judge. I'm also not a doormat and never suggested being one of those either. Never said "don't bring A up" or anything like that. Yes it has to be confronted, but I abhor the idea of the public nature of the exposure you seem to be suggesting.

I'm not your judge either. I just urge any LBSer who wants to do that, to publicly expose the A to "family and friends", to seriously examine their motives and goals. I don't "dismiss" the idea of ending the A as being a small matter. Good grief....But I say IF the real goal OF ENDING THE A is restoration of the M -- it damn sure matters how you work to end the A.... and yes it would have to end. But publicly exposing it "to family and friends" is an extreme form of confronting that, and not all that different to me, than a scarlet letter. It seems dangerous to the long term restoration of the M.
It surely can look punitive, and judgemental and NOT make the WAS feel like coming home with an expectation of happiness in the M...If I wanted to stay M despite H having an A, I'd prefer to privately confront my h and tell him to end it within an hour, in front of me. Then we'd do the "real work" on restoring the M. As for the OP, if they're married, then their spouse should know. Beyond that, I can see NO benefit to more "public exposure," and in particular if you want a loving marriage again. Based on what I've seen, the fewer people that know and judge and label the WAS, the easier it is to mend the M in full. I said I've never seen shame work as a tool to restore a M and I stand by that. You did not dismiss the term "shame" until now and you inserted the word exposure instead...but they can be very very similar and one can directly lead to the other.

I used the phrase "don't shame the WAS into coming back and expect a real reconciiliation" and meant it. PT brought up exposing them "To family and friends" as his approach... PT's approach is one approach.
j-

[Puppy Dog Tails]

25,

You seem to be offended by the fact that I posted my opinion in response to your post to someone else (emphasis yours). Isn't that part of the purpose of this forum, to comment, advise, agree and disagree not only with the thread's author, but with each other? And I did so respectfully, and briefly.

You seem to be reading waaaayyy too much into one man's stating of an opposing point of view.

For the record, I was referring to the general passive approach of others when I called it "The Little Bo-Peep" approach. I coined that phrase a year or so ago, long before you and I ever posted to each other, and it wasn't meant to disparage you.

I am glad to see that you agree with exposure to OM/OW's spouse. I do think they have a right to know, so that they can then do with the information as they best see fit in their own family.

Puppy

[25yearsmlc]

PT

The book I read really was a big deal to me and I wanted to share it b/c it resonated with me. It was a humbling book, discussing how we (lbsers) ought to look within, and not point blame or stare only at others (WAS's) to avoid that inward search of ours and when I posted about it, I posted it as a confessional for me, not a diatribe. I felt EO would benefit from it and a few others who told me they did....(and btw, the bold print and caps etc. well...okay the caps can "sound like yelling" but the colors and font changes are classic tools for written clarity so I don't get the problem with using them and probably won't stop.)

Besides PT, some of my posts are darn long. Yep, I emphasized that. (And I don't even get paid by the word!) But as a teacher/lawyer they are useful and I'll continue using them. I'll watch for the caps I guess.

Oh, I found dncrm deliberately insulting (and out of nowhere too. Never seen him before). Besides if he knew you or me, he'd know you of all people don't exactly need defending.

Anyhow, of course an adulterer should be confronted. I agree. But here's one other side issue to ponder just for discussion. If one "KNEW" (and I mean really really knew---see how bold print saves time PT? now I'm having to add that sentence for clarity... )

So if they know that an affair would end their M b/c they just know they would not forgive their spouse for it, a whole different scenario could be envisioned.
That's a point that seems to be getting missed. God knows if my h had an affair and I thought 'this is it for us!" I would say something far far different than otherwise...oh yeah...

Here's an unusual story with an odd but related point.

I was a JAG officer and serving in the Gulf War while h paid the army back for med school. An officer's wife came to me about her h's affair and wanted to press charges b/c in the military it is still a crime to cheat. She wanted a divorce also, (but she was only 75% sure of that.) I completely understood her position and would have felt the same. The long tours of duty wherein she had been the sole parent (4 kids!) and switched jobs and she gave up a good career & moved over and over, ete etc - You get the picture.

Here's the rub. So if charges get pressed (and he was a high ranking officer so they might very well do that to make an example of adultery and "conduct unbecoming an officer") then he most likely either a career ending letter of reprimand which will lower his retirement pay and hurt ALL of the family OR worse, he gets a discharge (dishonorable is the only kind of punitive discharge an officer can get) AND that means they lose their only source of income, housing, (60 days to vacate), health insurance, life insurance and their retirement....and this woman was 53 y/o with no real job history.

This does not relate directly to civilian life but there are overlaps.

It gets complicated doesn't it? She had to choose something. The officer's wife chose to "hold off" on the divorce issue and see where the M went, but not to press charges as that would effectively punish her children and they'd lose their home, money, insurance and the whole nine yards. That would have been a lose lose sitch. Yes this is unusual but it points to collateral damage really well and

Though in the extreme, it's illustrative. But I digress.

Yes this is a place to agree and disagree and all that. You're right that it hit a chord for ME but like I said, its b/c of the book I was trying to share, recommended by a good man, and very helpful. H also read it btw and said it was "very powerful".... anyhow, the chord I think it hit in you is not b/c of the book but b/c it's close to home and I get that. I do. And I wish your sitch well. I really do.

j-

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

And I appreciate your service to our country.

Puppy

[Coach]

Good now you two take a lap together holding hands.

Happens frequently on the practice field, two team mates get sideways, tempers flare then we are all cool again. Having common values and goals keeps us focused. Serious - get moving and no cutting corners.

Cheers

ps I almost think you two were arguing the same point just coming at it from different perspectives.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Yessir, Coach!

I'm still not so sure we agree, but I admire 25's passion, and most of all her dedicated HELP to people here. It is, after all, why we are all here -- to help each other. I realized I was letting my own ideology get in the way of the greater good here.

We need MORE people here helping newbies -- not LESS. And it is a GOOD thing that we bring to them different ideas and perspectives. They are, as always, free to pick and choose what works best for them.

Puppy

[AlexEN]

Good now you two take a lap together holding hands.

Happens frequently on the practice field, two team mates get sideways, tempers flare then we are all cool again. Having common values and goals keeps us focused. Serious - get moving and no cutting corners.

Cheers

ps I almost think you two were arguing the same point just coming at it from different perspectives.

Funny you should say that Coach, because I remember when I was reading the exchange thinking that they sounded like a married couple saying a lot of the same things, but talking past each other because they thought they were fighting...

[25yearsmlc]

I agree that We do have the same goals, I think. Which is the full restoration of marriages. But PT and I do disagree with the approach to take when it comes to affairs and whether his approach, right or wrong, is in line with the philiosophy of DBing as well. We still disagree.

But there are also situations on this board that we are in total agreement on as far as approaches to use. I have actually asked posters to ask him questions at times b/c his approach is different and some posters need to hear that OR they need to hear a man say the same thing I said. Goes both ways on that. When I first came here, I wanted advice from people who'd been through something like I was enduring, and had "won" or at least survived, and I wanted men's views b/c I literally did not understand how my h could be acting so differently and out of character and needed a guy to explain. Back then, FIB and Was2 and several other great wonderful men posted to me and I owe them so much thanks. No matter what happens in our worlds, it's good to know that the "other side" is not the enemy. Coming here helps with that a lot.

Regardless, don't let the discussion dissuade any of you from reading the book, "Blue Like Jazz" which has provoked great internal dialogue for me (and h, which I guess means it's not all internal anymore...) about how to incorporate our faith in a more proactive way in the community, and our family and what not to do. (An offshoot of that is why I posted about shame, but it's not the theme of the book, if you kwim.)

Anyhow, gotta go work for a living again...or pretend to.

(( j ))

[RustyShackleford]

...And I stand by my point as well, and that is you can just as easily point to cases where marriages end in divorce and it might have gone differently if the betrayed spouse had been MORE aggressive, not less so.
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Many LBSs, in cases of continued and flagrant infidelity, wish they had taken a stronger stand for their OWN self-esteem and emotional well-being.

My wife lost all respect for me because I listened to those on this board (and my DB coach, I might add). For some, "bo peep" works. For many (including myself - and most men), it's time to grow a pair and stand up for what's right.

From another PDT post:

MOST LBSs can't handle prolonged (longer than 6 months) deceit and infidelity. To men, especially, it can be emasculating.

Yep... I thought I could do it, but in the end, the adulterous relationship took a HUGE toll on my self-esteem. A couple of months if IC helped, though.

BTW, I was, at one time, a prolific poster here, under the name MarkInOhio (or some form of that). Perhaps some here remember me. Regardless, my marriage is headed for divorce; my wife has absolutely no respect for me, and she treats strangers and dogs better than she treats me. But, as I said, I found a great therapist, and I am OK. In fact, my future looks very bright. I know what I need to do, and how to get it done. There's nothing ahead of me that I can't handle.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Hi Mark! Of course I remember you! I'm sorry your sitch didn't turn out better, but you do sound stronger than I remember. I hope you'll keep posting!

Puppy