Yet another thread of mine has reached that critical 13-14 page point (and over 100 replies), and is due to be locked by the moderators, so it's time to start a new one. Here are the links to my previous threads:
For those who don't know my situation, here is a brief recap of our -remarkable- relationship / marital recovery story so far:
The Bad Old Days
My wife and I have been married for over 20 years, have four children (two young adults and two in elementary/middle school), and were in what seems to be a 'classic' HD-male / LD-female relationship for nearly all of our married lives. You could replace the Debra and Tom in Chapter 1 of SSM with our names, and with only a few modifications have a pretty accurate description of our situation up to last year. We were at the point where we each lived our own separate life, interacted only as necessary, and even slept in separate bedrooms most of the time: and we were both unhappy, lonely, and resentful. I had threatened separation on a few occasions, but could not bring myself to go through with it while we still had children in the house. In the winter of 2006-2007, a job change from one side of the country to the other forced us into a six-month separation anyway, while I went to the new job and my wife stayed behind to sell the old house -- and you all know what happened to the housing market that year. At first, the separation seemed like no big deal: we had been pretty much doing our own thing anyway, and it removed the nearly constant sexual tension between us that was present when we were together. As weeks stretched into months, however, I became depressed and passed through my own form of MLC, in which I recognized the pathetic state of my personal relationship with both my wife and children, and I understood that in order to be happy again, I either needed to fish or cut bait; that is, either put forward a genuine and sustained effort to rebuild my marriage or cut ties and seek my happiness elsewhere. I opted for the former.
Our progress, since then:
July 2007: My wife and I were reunited after the six-month separation wherein I found within myself the desire and drive to fix my broken marriage.
August 2007: Beginning with John Gray's Mars/Venus book, I began a research campaign to figure out 'how' to fix my marriage, putting into practice what I liked, and discarding what didn't seem to work.
November 2007: I found Michele's SSM book, asked my wife read it, wherein she had her own epiphany regarding men and the importance of physical intimacy. Breakthrough #1.
December 2007: I joined the old DB:SSM forum and shared a little of my story there...all the while my wife and I are making slow improvements in our relationship. I only stuck around on that forum a few weeks, and missed the entire 'Valentine's Day Exodus / Massacre.'
February 2008: we found an individual / couples / sex therapist to help us out and have been seeing him regularly ever since.
May 2008: My wife finally had the confidence in our marriage recovery, and trust in me, to reveal what she really needed in order to be happy both in and out of the bedroom -- it was time for me to 'man up' and take charge. I picked up a copy of NMMNG and starting applying the principles therein. Breakthrough #2.
January-February 2009: My wife and I were finally able to reach an area of overlap where we both felt comfortable and confident that our respective needs/wants with regard to emotional and physical intimacy would be met (gladly, not resentfully) by the other. We found our "Zone," narrow razor's-edge that it is for right now.
This past March, we fell off that razor's edge, but have been working to get back on it again. We have, at least, had a taste of what our final goal will be partially like --> as it was, it was not susttainable and there were some missing ingredients, but it was still very nice and a step in the right direction.
-- Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
The visit with the couple's counselor / sex therapist this week went very well. Some hightlights:
We had an interesting discussion regarding the Riso-Hudson Enneagrams for my wife and myself, which I had shared with her (and with you folks here) earlier in the week, with particular regard to our respective childhoods and their effects on us. In a nutshell, what each of us has to do for each other is to give our partner the thing that we each subconsciously yearn for the most: in my case, acceptance; and in her case, security. What each of us has to also do for ourselves is to recognize and work to reduce the influence of the basic 'fear' in our lives: in my case, fear of rejection; and her her case, fear of abandonment. My case is one that we've talked about at length, but this was one of the first instances of a more symmetrical his-hers discussion.
We also had a nice discussion regarding sexual polarity, and taking stock of where we are as a couple in moving towards that polarity. Despite still seeming to be very uncomfortable with doing so, my wife admitting feeling some -tendrils- of desire toward exploring her femininity in that manner. After the therapist handed me my jaw back (which had fallen to the floor), we set about discussing the environment needed for her to begin doing just that, which not surprisingly, amounts to reestablishing the little plateau that we enjoyed in Jan-Feb, and which we have set the stage for regaining over the last couple of weeks. I'm very proud of my girl for volunteering to push herself out of her "comfort zone" --> now to do my part and provide her with the secure, stable platform from which to dive (mixed metaphor, notwithstanding).
-- Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Baggy - maybe its just me, but what does this mean exactly?:
"We also had a nice discussion regarding sexual polarity, and taking stock of where we are as a couple in moving towards that polarity. Despite still seeming to be very uncomfortable with doing so, my wife admitting feeling some -tendrils- of desire toward exploring her femininity in that manner."
I know you were just journaling, but I couldn't help but get happy and excited for you...but then to come to this line and realize, I have no clue what you are referring to. Maybe I missed something? What is "it" that she is feelings some tendrils of desire "toward"?
Baggy - maybe its just me, but what does this mean exactly?:
"We also had a nice discussion regarding sexual polarity, and taking stock of where we are as a couple in moving towards that polarity. Despite still seeming to be very uncomfortable with doing so, my wife admitting feeling some -tendrils- of desire toward exploring her femininity in that manner."
Sorry about that. Increasing sexual polarity within the marriage essentially means that with regard to a couple's sexual and romantic relationship, the man moves in a more masculine direction and the woman moves in a more feminine direction --> and in so doing they each make themselves more sexaully attractive to their mate and their sex life improves.
From the woman's perspective, it looks like this:
A Woman tends to marry a guy who is kind, loving, and caring, who is a good provider and father to her children, but she often has a difficult time turning-on to him sexually as is....he has to ALSO be a sexually ruthless 'pirate' in bed, a real 'man' who will sexually objectify her, take her, and display animal passion for her.
Hence all of the work I have been doing since last May to liberate and explore the masculine, dominate side of my nature and carry it into the bedroom with us -- to both of our delights. I'll also add that there are far too many men out there who don't understand the above, and too many woman who are afraid to tell their men about it.
From the man's perspective, it looks like this:
A man tends to marry a woman who will be a kind, responsible, nurturing woman and mother to his children, but he often has a difficult time turning-on to her sexually in her mom jeans, Birks, and a low-maintenance haircut/ponytail....she has to ALSO be a lubricious, shameless vixen in bed, eager to display (sexually objectify) herself in slutty lingerie and stilletous in order to entice the interests of her man.
The above, "man's perspective" is more commonly 'accepted' by society and catered to in popular culture, and it is one that my wife has a difficult time with. As I've discussed before, she isn't comfortable with the notion of 'displaying herself' or sexually objectifying herself for my benefit or to entice the "chase." So thus far, we generally only been working on one side of that 'sexual polarity' equation (mine). However, with this last appointment, my wife is starting to show some hints / desire to move in the feminine direction on her side of 'scale.'
You go girl!
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
It is very hard for me to remember that Mrs. B (or any woman really) have a hard time displaying their feminine sexuality, because that is one area I've always enjoyed and relished. So I tend to forget that other women don't just naturally do things like that...part of this is also because I am bi, and so therefore, I can "see past" a woman's front view of herself she shares with the public, and instead I see into how she "really looks" with my sexual eye...and in this process, I always see a woman who is flaunting her sexuality. Hope that makes sense. I think it might only makes sense to a man.
So in my mind's eye, Mrs. B can't "hide" her feminine sexuality from anyone. Its there, no matter what frumpy clothes she is wearing or how she tries to be a "good girl".
Wait, maybe it isn't that way for men? Because they are turned off by the frumpy clothes?? I can just see right past them.
Anyway, thanks for explaining! I get it and am so happy for you!
Let the vixen out of her cage Mrs. Baggy! You can't hide her forever!!
So great to hear that your situation is on the incline again!
I agree with DQ. I can see the sexy past anything. Maybe this is a female trait. I would think Heidi Klum and George Clooney and Russell Crowe (your celebrity double) would ooze sexy no matter what. Imagine Heidi in Birks and high-waisted mommy jeans and a dopey turtleneck. Imagine Russell in a nerd shirt with pocket protector, glasses, checked pants, and hush puppies. Yep... still hot and f**kable. They have that natural sexy that creates an aura.
BUT, I can see how the *effort* of being more fem or masculine would show that the person is more willing to have sex, even if they don't have a natural sexy aura. And, with more and more sex, I'd bet that aura would build.
So, polarity=a very good idea for an SSM, in my opinion.
OK so it must not be a bi thing, but a woman thing. Maybe we women are just very much tuned in to sexuality, even if we aren't ourselves being sexual? (Of course Lucky and I are both very sexual, so maybe that is the difference?)
Also this could explain why mothers (such as Baggy's mother) are so freaked out by sexuality....they can see it everywhere, in everyone, even if a woman isn't flaunting it, its there.
I'll also add that sexual polarity is just as much improving actions, as much as appearance.
I haven't changed my wardrobe or appearance much over the past year, with the exception of adding the short beard. However, I -have- changed my behavior with regard to my wife, particularly in our romantic relationship and *especially* in the bedroom. Milquetoast is no longer permitted there. Could I do more appearance wise? You bet -- I need to amp up my exercise schedule and could -drag- myself to the store and improve the clothes selection. But the most important thing is to keep improving my masculine behavior with her -- that's the key for her.
Now, admittedly, since woman are the -display- sex in our species, and men are visually stimulated by it, my wife could easily move in the feminine direction and improve our sexual relationship with changes in wardrobe / appearance. However, changes in behavior would be just as welcome --> right now, she never flirts, is never sexually provative in her actions, is never sexually playful or teasing. She's got room to explore in -both- appearance and behavior, in small steps.
That said, I love her and find her hot and sexy as is, and tell her so frequently. I R smrt.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Baggy, once she does it, even once in some tiny way...she will soon literally LOVE IT and be all over you with sexual displays, flirting, etc.
She just hasn't experienced it yet so she has no idea how rewarding it is to feel like a WOMAN. The power of WOMAN is intoxicating, even to ourselves!
Just a question though, haven't you taken my advice yet and told her straight up to flash you? Just getting her to do this, via an act of masculine selfish demand upon her by you, will turn her on and give her a taste of what it might feel like to actually do it on her own initiative.
Just a question though, haven't you taken my advice yet and told her straight up to flash you? Just getting her to do this, via an act of masculine selfish demand upon her by you, will turn her on and give her a taste of what it might feel like to actually do it on her own initiative.
Nope. I'll know when she's ready and would actually do it upon masculine selfish demand, and she's far, far from the point right now. ATM, I'd get a very sour look and a flat out refusal, which would make me look weak, not masculine.
Baby steps.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
