How are things? I've been thinking about this, and I really think the miscarriage is the main source of conflict in your W's mind. You are, unfortunately, a reminder of the loss. What was your approach like? I know you said you are solution oriented, so what was your solution? Who's idea was it to start trying again? Pregnancies are a very deep and emotional thing for women, and to experience a miscarriage is very traumatic. This, more than anything, is likely the source of your marriage problems.
WP - Thanks for your posts. Knowing one is not alone really makes a big difference.
I think you're dead on right with the miscarriage being a major issue. I guess in this respect I don't know if 'solution-oriented' is the right phrase. We had a long phase of just abject sorrow. There was a point when I really didn't think there was any reason to go on. But, eventually, as things do, you just kind of find a way to move on, and one day is better than the next, and on and on. But you're guess is right, I was the one who was bringing up the subject of trying again. She was upfront that she was afraid of losing another baby and of course risking her own life, but I thought she had agreed to it. But, I admit that I have never been the best at reading between the lines in these types of issues.
Before that pregnancy, she was also afraid that she would not be a good mother. This stems from having a neglectful and bordering on abusive mother (certainly emotionally abusive, sometimes physically). Of course she would have been a good mother, and I actually almost brought one of my more stoic friends to tears when I confided this with him, because he couldn't imagine her being anything but a wonderful mother. But this was a big issue that actually lead her to therapy the first time around, and this combined with the miscarriage are likely huge contributors to our problems.
For me, I thought I had been 'past' the miscarriage: acknowledged that this horrible things has happened, recognize that it's a part of me now, and then put it in a different place in my mind. But, even though I can sit in my therapists office and speak semi-calmly and rationally about the OM in the situation and how I want W to be happy and healthy and how I need to GAL and all that stuff, I am just weeping away when we talk about the miscarriage.
So in the end it's still terribly raw to me, and I bet ten times more for her. She's been consumed by guilt (no one has ever even hinted that there is any blame other than bad luck) about it and told me that she thinks it would have been better if the baby had survived and she didn't. Her therapist at the time had indicated that post-traumatic stress disorder is not uncommon in these situations, but then W decided not to continue with therapy. In retrospect, of course I should have pressed the issue, but that was then, and this is now.
Well, for now, though, I do what I can on my side, trying to see friends, go out and stay busy, work with my IC about what are obviously still hard issues for me, and give her some time and space. I read your story and I get hopeful, though objectively I know I have to be realistic and focus on things that I can actually change.
Thanks again to you WP and to everyone else who has responded. It really means a lot to me.
(I don't write often, but I write a lot when I do!)
Well, call it DB or going dark or whatever you like, but after our last conversation a week ago, I fundamentally decided that if she really wanted time alone (no calls, no email, no texts, etc), then I would abide by that and spend the time focused on seeing friends I'd fallen out of touch with, concentrating on some work issues, and spending more time focusing on some of my hobbies.
I did send her a very short email telling her that her new personal credit card and bank stuff had arrived in the mail. She suggested a time that I agreed to, then she came over today to get her mail. A lot of people talk about how liberating it felt for them the first time their WAS came over and they were dispassionate and non-emotional about it. I did that, but I have to say, for me, it felt like crap. She asked about what I had been doing with some of our mutual friends, and I gave just a brief account of how we had a good time at dinner the previous night, and that was it. She stood at the door on the way out looking sad and like she wanted me to start talking, but I just indicated the mail, asked if this was all she wanted, and that was that.
It felt terrible to basically turn her out of our home like that, but I didn't want to cry and beg again because (a) she said explicitly she didn't want to; (b) I feel like crap now, but I imagine I would have felt a lot more crappy if I had gone the other route, and (c) some dark cruel vindictive corner of myself wants to say (but obviously didn't) "You wanted to be alone, and now you start to see how miserable that road is. Tough stuff, huh?"
Alone, you're doing a great job. You've been spending your time on GAL activities and giving your W space. The contact you initiated was business related and you kept the meeting short and to the point. All excellent.
You may feel bad now but you're right that you would have felt worse if the conversation were dragged out and eventually ended up back on R issues. Your vindictive part is natural and normal. And that's what you're trying to accomplish here - showing her what life alone will be like and letting her decide if that's really what she wants.
If you feel bad for continuing in this manner, try looking at it from a different perspective. There were problems in your marriage, enough that your W felt overwhelmed and that she needed to escape her life and live out the fantasy of being single and carefree. By removing yourself from her life you are removing yourself as the person to blame so she has no choice but to look at herself and the situation she has created. This gives her a chance to gain some clarity. You are giving her the gift of NOT solving her problems for her.
No one said it would be easy. But you can get through this. When I was feeling down I called a girlfriend to chat about anything other than my sitch. Since you're a man I'm going to assume that you're not a big phone chatter. Do something fun and/or indulgent, you definitely deserve it!
If you love somebody, set them free. http://tinyurl.com/2empx2g
Good to hear from you. I agree with pearl, what you did was good. This is all very difficult, I know that, but you will make it through this. I think it's important that your W doesn't think you are happy that she's gone, but at the same time you don't want to appear depressed and miserable when she sees you. You want to look like the man she once was convinced she loved. Be a positive force in her life, not a negative one. This is hard and will take time, but you can do it. Towards the end of my separation I had started having really pleasant times with my W, all the while letting her know in a calm and gentle way that I remained committed to her and our marriage. I don't know if that works for everyone, but I do know that in my situation my W needed to know that I had not "moved" on with my life w/out her.
Feelings of vindication are perfectly normal and nothing to feel ashamed of, just be careful they don't consume you or cause you to be nasty to your W. Also, be very careful with what you discuss with mutual friends. I made the mistake of sharing too much of our problems with friends/relatives, and now even though we're back together some of those relationships remain dammaged.
Definitely try to do things that will fill your time and allow you a chance to grow and reflect on yourself.
I've tried to leave her alone for a while. We did need to take care of some financial and logistical matters, so we ended up talking. It began with anger and accusations, mostly from me as related to the EA. But while we never really able to actually sit down and talk calmly about things, she was able to more clearly express what had been making her so upset. For whatever reason, these never fully made it from her into me before, or I never appreciated how significant the problems were. I take ownership of part of these problems, and I've re-cast them here in terms of things that I need to work on, rather than recounting the specific details on when and where I failed:
I didn't allow her to feel free to express her emotions. She would come home upset from work, and I would try and come up with solutions to the problem. By doing this, I was acting condescending towards her, implying that she wasn't able to solve the problem on her own. What I should have done is sympathize and support her. My help isn't always needed everywhere. Other people are perfectly able to solve their own problems, and sometimes all that's needed is a loving ear, not answers.
I didn't express my feeling towards her. I love her more than anything. I think she is beautiful and wonderful and brilliant and an extraordinary person. But, I never said that. I assumed that it was clear how I felt, and that I could convey my feelings in how I acted towards her and by doing things for her. It would have been clearer and more meaningful to have also just said that this is how I feel. Doing things to 'make her life easier' wasn't a way of making it clear how I loved her, it actually did the opposite by implying that she couldn't take care of herself.
I made too many assumptions. I guessed at how she felt or made assumptions on what she would say or how she would respond to things. This kept me from saying things that I should have said. This includes assuming that she knew how much I loved her. This also includes assuming that I knew when she would say yes or no to things, which led me to not ask, which led her to believe that I didn't care. Assuming things about how other people feel or will act is arrogant and insensitive.
I didn't build my own life. Instead of going out and finding new friends and things that interested me, I always wanted to be with her. As she worked longer hours and had some divergent interests, that left me sitting and sulking and her feeling pressured and guilty. I need to recognize that spending some time apart and doing separate things is perfectly healthy. As part of that, I need to get out there and find things that I enjoy.
I told her that I understand how this made her feel, and that I'm sorry for this. I also stated my belief that even though everyone has a way of seeing one side at a time, the reality is that the past ten years of our relationships has a mix of both low points, as we've seen here, and also plenty of high points, and that we both truly loved each other. Maybe not all the time, and maybe not at the end when things were unraveling around her, but we definitely did have a special love.
So I understand that we can never go back to where we were. That time has too much hurt and pain. But I believe that with time we can both forgive and take the many good things we did have and build something new and better. Not now, not next month, but when we're both ready.
We can cast this in whatever terms fit, I guess. I suppose given the errors I've made, expressing this level of emotion to her is a 180 for me. Detaching is very hard for me. We have no children, and so we don't have any reason to cross paths except when we actively plan something out specifically so we can meet. As a result, I'm so afraid that we'll just drift apart from the lack of contact. I suppose there is some middle ground, where we need to evolve to a relationship where we can meet as friends and where she can see in actions and not just words how I actually am willing and able to change. How we get there from here, I don't know.
This is so hard and I am so unbelievably sad. I have always been a happy person, and people have always told me how laid back and funny I am. Now, I cry all the time, I'm so sad, and even though I've gotten to the point where I can start spelling out the issues, like I have here, I really don't know where I'm going and what's happening. It's all unraveling and I'm so terrified and sad.
I just want us to try. I know she's been trying before on her own to make things okay, but I want to try together. I really think we can do it. We just have to get to the point of trying.
It's great to see that you have identified the main issues and what you can do about it. I hope you know that many people are dealing with the same issues so your sitch is not unusual. I say that wanting to show you that you are not alone.
I think the most important right now is to continue to GAL. What new/old activities are you doing? And if you say working out I want to hear at least two others. These activities are important for several reasons: it will help you get your mind off the sitch by filling it with other things, bring joy into your life and help erase the sadness, it addresses an issue that was important to your W, and most importantly, it helps you be the best person you can be.
Have you seen the Jim Carrey movie "Yes Man"? Watch it. Even if you don't like him or that genre. I saw it in the middle of my sitch and it really sparked the desire to GAL. Now I do all sorts of things I never would have tried before and I'm having so much fun!
Don't focus on the fact that you don't have kids. xBF and I don't have kids either and I used to envy those people who had some reason to stay in contact. But honestly I couldn't detach with him around and since we've lived apart I finally feel comfortable at home.
And after a month xBF started asking if he could come visit the cats. Others have had WAS offer to come over to mow the lawn or want to pick up things, etc. So you don't need kids in the picture to have a connection. If she wants to see you she will find a way.
Remember that you need to focus on you right now. You cannot control your W's actions or emotions so just work on becoming the best person you can be.
If you love somebody, set them free. http://tinyurl.com/2empx2g
What new/old activities are you doing? And if you say working out I want to hear at least two others.
Ha! I like that. It's funny, it seems like every person on this board starts off their GAL with working out more. Well, I guess I have tried exploring some different types of music (actually went to a concert on my own for the first time in my life) and also reconnecting with friends. I think it really speaks to how badly I needed to GAL: I had a friend that I've been regularly seeing/emailing/IMing ever since high school. By chance I ended up moving first to the same city as him, then last year a few blocks from him. We still chatted almost every day but I've probably seen him more in the last month than the whole 3 years I've lived in the same city. It says a lot about how badly I needed to GAL. Oh, yeah, and I'm running and working out a lot more
It's good to hear your experience about not having kids and how that affects or doesn't affect detachment. I've become the caretaker of our two cats, so who knows, maybe they'll be the incentive for her to keep at least some contact.
I've also worked on drawing strength from my close friends and really letting them know how I'm feeling. My IC recommended this both as a way to just make myself feel better and to actually start working on this problem of not being communicative about my emotions. And you know what, it works. I feel 'better', I feel more connected, and I feel like I'm doing something. It's not really GAL per se, but it's making myself a better person, and that surely counts for something!
So it's hard and I never know what I'll see outside or what turn of conversation I'll hear that will trigger this overwhelming sense of sadness, but everyone here is right. I have to focus on what I can actually change.
Two cats? Seems we do have a lot in common! Background on my sitch: they are my cats. xBF always played some with them but mostly they are my responsibility. All of a sudden he really wanted to see them and spend time with them. Yeah, right. So yes, your W may do the same thing.
Yep, everyone says working out is their GAL activity but I don't buy it because it's not really something most people enjoy doing. They like the results it generates but don't really enjoy the activity itself unless it's something like training for a marathon or playing basketball, some specific activity. Hey, I started walking four miles a day but I don't think of it as GAL. I think of it as getting my big lazy butt off the couch and getting healthy. Now my dance classes are GAL activities.
I totally hear you on reconnecting with friends. Facebook has been a godsend these past six months. It brought me back in touch with friends who knew me way back when and that is the person I liked being. It's good to talk to people who remember you that way because it's easier to think of yourself that way. Also, I have a college friend who lives a mile down the road from me. We got together a few times before the bomb but now we do something every week, sometimes twice a week.
So what are other ideas for GAL activities? Is there an old hobby you haven't done in a long time? Something you've always wanted to try? Something you never thought you'd try?
And I'm serious about watching that movie. It will really make you smile and get you wanting to try new things.
If you love somebody, set them free. http://tinyurl.com/2empx2g
We always shared responsibilities for the cats. I suppose I played with them more, but I was also home more. It's interesting, when she comes over now, the cats go crazy rubbing against her and climbing up on her (they do that with everyone) as she scratches and pets them and says love-y things to them. And it's a wee little thing, but it really annoys me, like "Hey, you don't have any right to give and get love from the cats right now!" Sigh. What a weird thought.
As far as GAL, I fit into the training for a (half) marathon category, so I still get to count working out as one of my GAL activities! I have thought that it might be good to also join a local running club, since that's a chance to meet new people socially (not in a "meet another woman" kind of way, though!) Sadly, I've been saying that literally for 3 years now, but maybe this is time to motivate and do it.
But you're right, there are many other things that I could be doing. One thing I'm looking into is using meetup.com to get more socially active. I posted a new topic to hear what sort of interesting things people have tried or rediscovered for GAL. For me ... for crying out loud, I live in one of the biggest most culturally rich cities in the world, if I can't GAL here, then we're really in trouble! I always liked going to museums, so that might be somewhere to start. Fishing - always enjoyed it but rarely got a chance to do it. That's worth looking into. Cooking, though I find it a bit grim to cook for myself. I'm sure I can come up with ideas, it's really a matter of motivating myself to get out the door and do it! I'm naturally pretty shy and so I feel self conscious about going out alone (though of course I know that there's nothing really to be self conscious about no one on the street notices or cares) ... and getting into new social groups, wow, that would be a truly giant step for me.
I'll take your advice on the movie. I'm on a business trip now, but when I get home this weekend, that's on my list of things to do. I could use a smile, after all!
Do something fun and/or indulgent, you definitely deserve it!