WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 6

[confusedinpa]

Well another one got locked

Here are the links to the last 5:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1702221&page=4&fpart=14

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1712747&page=5&fpart=13

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1719092&page=2&fpart=15

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1726284&page=1&fpart=15

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1732394&page=1&fpart=23

She's three weeks from moving out. I'm really struggling on how to continue. It seems that I still haven't gotten a good hanlde on bringing compassion into the DB 180 that I have underway.

She did say she would continue to go to marriage counseling with me. I'm getting mixed messages from her whether she really thinks this is the end or if she is thinking this is an unfortunate, but necessary pause, in our relationship. Unfortunately, most of her messages are that this is the end.

I'm really feeling lost....

[confusedinpa]

When the kids started to watch their show she was in the den. I went in and massaged her shoulder lightly and thanked her for trying to make me feel better.

CIPA, just in case you do not realize it, this is pursuing. This is neither DBing nor compassion.

My only agenda at that point was to genuinely thank her for helping me when I was battling my stomach virus.

I then said I know how hurt she must have felt and I wish that I didn't make her feel that way. I asked her how she was feeling now.

Again, you are pursuing. You are starting R talk. Stop it!

Now that it's put back in front of me that way, I see how I started a relationship talk. My intention was to understand how she feels now, but I guess that is the heart of the relationship.

I had noticed in our weekly marraige counseling sessions, I seem to dominate the conversation talking about my feelings/thoughts. She would respond/offer her thoughts on my assessment of our situation. My current thinking for the next session is to just ask her what she is feeling now - namely if she feels trapped, perhaps we can talk about why.

I'm open to other thoughts/suggestions. Our counselor usually just starts with asking how are we doing. She would always differ to me. I wanted to try and get her to talk more about how she's feeling, rather than keeping it bottled in.

Or maybe you are angry at yourself for failing to make her stay? Try to listen to your feelings, try to figure out your motivation that is behind your behavior.

You are right, I am angry at myself for failing to make her feel loved and appreciated. I don't know how to let go of that. I've accepted it, but I still fail like a failure. I never meant to hurt her, nor did I realize what was even going on. I didn't know until she told me she filed for divorce. How could I be so stupid/ignorant.

She thinks that by getting away, she may realize what all she is giving up. She did start crying.

That is why I still think she is on the fence, no matter what she does or say.

For your words to God's ears.

I asked her if it would be ok to hug her. She said yes

The way you did it, it is pursuing. Do not ask, just hug her and say "I understand." Period.

I asked her because in the past when she had gotten this upset, when I went to hug her she got angry.

So I guess this brings me back to my earlier question, how do I DB when she moves out?

Or is that the time to go dark?

I hope that answers your questions. You DB by letting her contact you (unless it is something you need to talk to her about the kids, but refrain from any R talk in those situations, unless she starts it). I would not call it dark, maybe dim. You need to stop any kind of pursuing 100%, but I would still respond to her attempts to make contact.

AN

AN - thanks for all the time that you are taking to help me with my situation. Everytime I think I've made the turn, I have a set back/backslide. I know it's people here on this forum is what's allowed me to even make it this far.

[confusedinpa]

I know it's the right thing to just "man up" and let her go. It is hard for me to fully accept as I don't believe that she is even considering the possibility of coming back. I know I'm not a mind reader nor should I be trying to guess what she is thinking.

She did tell me last nite that she had talked to my mom last weekend when I was in CT with the boys. Apparently my mom has been calling her everytday to give me another chance. Not sure if that is really helping or not.

Guess the bottom line I need to realize what's been pointed out to me, she doesn't see a life with me. I need to give her a reason to want to see a life with me. I've been making my changes. I guess I don't see how her not beeing around will make it possible for her to find a reason to see a life with me. So confusing.

When she brought up moving out on Monday, I asked did she think she would ever come back. She just answered - I want a divorce, what do you think. She gave no indication/sign of even considering the coming back. Last nite, she said, perhaps just to make me feel better, who knows, that she thinks being away from having the "negativity" right in front of her all the time may make her realize all that she is giving up. When I asked what "negativity" she said it was me.

I guess this could be the final stretch to make sure I show her my best 180. It is a little tough while I'm battling a stomach bug.

A positive is that she does say she wants to have a 50/50 custody agreement. Her original proposal was to have the kids move back and forth every 2 days. When I said that didn't offer much stability for the kids, she then said every 3 days. I'm going to suggest she can have them Mon night through Thurs night and I'll take then Fri night through Sun night. My thought process to that would be that since she's in an apartment and I'm in the house with the yard and all the toys, it makes more sense to have the kids in the house on the weekends. She'll have them for 1 more day/week than I will, but I'll ask for extra days throughout the year to get to 50/50

We'll see how that goes.

[confusedinpa]

Right now she's shut down because she doesn't understand what the heck is going on with her. She doesn't think she has the problem and is trying to do everything herself without really understanding what's going on. Typical MLC stuff.

You can show her compassion by understanding her confusion. She doesn't know why she feels trapped, she just knows she has to leave. She has to get to the point where she understands why she feels trapped in the first place. Only then can she truly feel "free".

Pick up clues from what she tells you and write them down as you have been. Try understanding her more from the little tidbits she tells you.

I was thinking about bringing up her "trapped" feeling in our counseling session on Monday. What do you think?

Another thing that she had brought up last ntie, when she tossed out the custody discussion and B'day party date discussion again, she said that she would have a lot more "respect" for me if I would just accept what she wants to do with both of them. She had said that she felt I still was not accepting the reality of the situation. Not sure if this is a tactic on her part to get me to just give her what she wants or what....

[AnotherNightmare]

My only agenda at that point was to genuinely thank her for helping me when I was battling my stomach virus.

Then you should have done that. The massaging part was the pursuing part. Let her start any physical contact, unless it is your true and honest way of showing compassion. What I mean by that, you hug her, hold her hand or whatever you do for her, not for your benefit.

I had noticed in our weekly marraige counseling sessions, I seem to dominate the conversation talking about my feelings/thoughts. She would respond/offer her thoughts on my assessment of our situation. My current thinking for the next session is to just ask her what she is feeling now - namely if she feels trapped, perhaps we can talk about why.

I would judge that she shuts down and does not want to talk about her feelings. Maybe it is a trust issue. She may be afraid that you use it against her later. Who knows?
My recommendation would be you have to live and work with whatever she is willing to offer. You cannot force her to talk about her feelings. The safer she feels, the more she will offer. So your objective has to be to make her feel safe. You can only accomplish that by respecting and accepting everything she says and does. No arguing about it, no "buts", no feelings or opinions from your side about it.

I asked her because in the past when she had gotten this upset, when I went to hug her she got angry.

I strongly believe that humans (and animals probably as well) can sense your motivation behind your behavior. If you hug her with thoughts in your mind like "Oh come on, it is not that bad", she can sense your disrespect for her fear and gets upset. If you hug her with true compassion, she will let it happen and actually feel better afterwards. Try to practice with your kids and you will see the difference.

When she brought up moving out on Monday, I asked did she think she would ever come back.

Do not do that. It shows your insecurity. And it makes you feel bad and powerless. No temperature taking anymore, ok?

When I asked what "negativity" she said it was me.

"Negativity" may be her word for it. In the end, you probably remind her of her fear, her anxiety, all her "negative" feelings she had during your M. Try to look at it in a positive way. It was not working. You were not coming closer together again, while she was in the house. You have gone down so many cheeseless tunnels. You may finally find cheese in the separation tunnel. I have said from the beginning that separation might not be the worst thing that could happen to both of you. It may stop you from triggering these "negative" feelings in her and finally let her heal and rediscover her "positive" feelings.

I was thinking about bringing up her "trapped" feeling in our counseling session on Monday. What do you think?

Do not try to script the MC session. Let her (and your MC) do this. Make her feel safe. By you taking the lead in these sessions, she may feel controlled, at least not safe enough to open up. I would not bring it up, but rather wait for her to bring it up.

She had said that she felt I still was not accepting the reality of the situation. Not sure if this is a tactic on her part to get me to just give her what she wants or what....

Honestly, I think she is right. You are not accepting the reality of the situation and are still trying to change her role in it, which again makes you feel sad, powerless and lots of other "negative" things. It does not help you. You need to look at the positive sides of things and people.

[spellfire]

Ask your Mom to stop asking her to give you another chance. That pressure will not bring her back.

I think it is time you truly start letting her go. As much as you try to act as if, you still fall back into old needy habits (shoulder massage etc.) You need more detachment from her.

[confusedinpa]

It's been an "interesting" morning so far. Quite a few emails/calls back and forth.

Some were pretty tactical about the kids - ie. can I pick up my oldest from school today (I stayed home sick again today), can I sign him up for summer camp, etc. Some were tactical about the custody - ie. she really wanted to cancel the mediation hearing on Monday (I think it's because it's the same law firm that handled her parent's divorce), so she wanted to make sure I would agree to coming up with something before she moved out. Others were humerous or just about her day (she got another nose bleed during a meeting today so she made an appointment to see a doctor today). Some were just asking how I was feeling.

Spellfire - I do agree that I need to get my mom to stop pressuring. I'll talk to her this weekend when she comes up to visit.

AN - I hope you are right that the she may rediscover the positive feelings. My fear/insecurity is that she feels that they have been gone for over 6 months (she says she made her decision back in Sept), that she may have forgotten them. Perhaps she will wind up haeling and forgetting the negative and positive and I will disappear from her life. I know that's impossible since we will always have the kids to keep us together, but it's still a fear.

I keep thinking itwas so much better a couple of weeks ago, but I think I was trying to fool myself. She hasn't since the initial custody discussion stopped asking about it, never a single week had gone by. Perhaps if I handled it differently. I know I can't second guess the things I did in the past.

I have to get back to being detached.....

Thanks for all your support/insight.

[AnotherNightmare]

It is a possibility that she will never rediscover those positive feelings for. But it is something you cannot control. The only thing you can do to be the most compassionate husband and father, to accept everything life throws at you and to prepare yourself for moving on with or without her.

Do not beat yourself up for what you may have done differently. You cannot change the past. You cannot change her and her behavior. If you try or think about it, it just makes you feel powerless. And that is a feeling you want to avoid. You want to feel powerful, and that is what women want to see in men anyway.

[MrBond]

"I was thinking about bringing up her "trapped" feeling in our counseling session on Monday. What do you think?"

I don't think you should bring that up because she already told you that it's her negative feelings toward you that is giving her that feeling. You can try if you think it seems appropriate, but I'm sure that's what she'll say. She still has to 'get over' seeing you as the source of all her hurt. Once she's out and you're not there, she'll see that you aren't the reason of all her ills. The trapped feeling and blaming are all MLC script.

"she said that she would have a lot more "respect" for me if I would just accept what she wants to do with both of them."

She's reflecting her lack of respect for you by saying you have no respect for her. Tell her flat out that you are respecting her and are doing what you believe is the best for the kids. She has her opinions as well as you do and both need to be respected. The two of you are going to have to compromise on what to do. Right now it's a tug of war between what she wants and what you want. You have to meet somewhere in the middle. Be the first one to come up with something before she does.

"She had said that she felt I still was not accepting the reality of the situation. Not sure if this is a tactic on her part to get me to just give her what she wants or what...."


With her moving out it's hard for you not to accept what's going on. However, she's wanting you to "accept" her choice of leaving. Tell her that you have repeatedly told her that she is free to leave because that is her choice. It is YOUR choice to work on the M. She has no right to say that your opinion is less important than hers. Again very selfish MLC talk. She's trying to alleviate her guilt by making you agree to it. To the MLC person it makes what they're doing so much more tolerable because it doesn't make it all their fault. She's taking a stand on leaving. Fine she can leave. It's not like you're physically forcing her to stay. But something in her is not rushing it. Guilt...shame...disappointment, it's all going on in her right now.

Once you understand that that is what she is going through, then you will be able to show her compassion. You can't change what she doesn't feel at the time, so understanding is all you have right now.

In some of your posts you still say "I can't see why...". That shows you have yet to really understand how to show compassion. It's when you stop questioning it and just accept it, then your W will be able to see the changes. Don't worry we all go through that and it takes awhile to learn.

See the separation as a good thing to let her get herself straightened out first. Let me put it to you this way. Do you really want her back the way she is now?

[confusedinpa]

She's taking a stand on leaving. Fine she can leave. It's not like you're physically forcing her to stay. But something in her is not rushing it. Guilt...shame...disappointment, it's all going on in her right now.

Once you understand that that is what she is going through, then you will be able to show her compassion. You can't change what she doesn't feel at the time, so understanding is all you have right now.

In some of your posts you still say "I can't see why...". That shows you have yet to really understand how to show compassion. It's when you stop questioning it and just accept it, then your W will be able to see the changes. Don't worry we all go through that and it takes awhile to learn.

See the separation as a good thing to let her get herself straightened out first. Let me put it to you this way. Do you really want her back the way she is now?

I think she is rushing to leave. I told her I love her so much that I want her to feel free to leave on 3/20. She's planning on leaving 4/17 - the week after my oldest turns 7. That seems pretty rushed to me

All my friends feel she is truly done and will not be looking back. I must accept that as a reality. I don't agree but it is what it is. I will continue to be the best man I can be

Any suggestions on how to make the most of the 3 weeks we have left in the house together?