I've read on various posts that sometimes a spouse is told that they aren't a good lover. Ouch. My natural reaction is to defend the "bad lover," assuming that both lovers are responsible for making great love, and assuming that each person has a different definition of a good lover. I suggest that the one who judges has also failed by not helping him/her become a good lover.
I wonder if, similar to many artforms, each individual has their own *changeable* proportion of natural talent and experience (not only including things like practice, number of lovers, variety of types of lovers, but also including factors such as abuse, shame, fear).
So, how does one become a better lover? And, how does a lover go about finding out what their partner's desires/dreams are, in his/her quest to become a "better lover"?
My sister and I were talking about her exBF. Sweet guy. He was eager to be a good lover for her. It was predictable... He would turn on the same music, initiate, and then all throughout their LM sessions, he would ask "Do you like this?" "Do you like that?" My sister was so busy processing questions and formulating answers, she could barely enjoy any of it. She didn't want to hurt his feelings or damage his sexuality, so she would give him polite answers (usually "yes," whether that was true or not). Afterward, she wouldn't say anything for fear of hurting his feelings. She endured a bad sex life and he never got any better because of the fear of being uncomfortable.
A couple of ways my sister could have responded come to mind: -Lovingly tell him afterward that his constant questions are killing the experience for her, and that if he needs to change something or do something additional, she'll guide him. (And then actually follow through on that!) -In the moment, deem his search unnecessary by showing him that she's really into it (display more enjoyment)
When I think about practical ways to help a person become a better lover, I start considering porn research (not sure if that's good or bad, as I know it can create an unrealistic vision), practical sex books (static images may not provide the best illustration of how to *let go* in the moment of passion, and just plain practice (which is inherently limited in a monogomous relationship).
When I think about lovers discussing desires, I wonder about the best way and the best time to initiate the discussion. I also wonder about ways to guide that discussion that will help openness flow. Of course, sex therapy is a wonderful forum, but that is not always practical for a couple's budget or for an unwilling partner.
Just thoughts. Would love to hear more ideas on this.
My take on it is that it takes a various amount of things. I think you :
1) Need to want a " Great " sex life to be a better lover. You have to want to be into it. If your just going thru the motions to get it over with, you will never be a great lover.
2) Total trust, honesty and inhibition with your lover. If you can't muster up the courage to say, " I dont like...... " or " I want.... " then it won't happen there either.
3)You also need to want to please one another.You have to want to please that other person cause in doing that it pleases you. I have had both ends of the scale. I was with one lover who desired as I did, WOW! When your with some1 who wants you as bad as you want them, wowza. Strap in, and get ready for the ride.. lol Whereas I married ( sorry to say ) some1 who just isn't interested in taking the time to figure me out. So, its going thru the same thing which may or may not work.
4)NOW< this is just me... lol You made mention of perhaps looking into porn. I think that it totally to each their own. Some ppl find it disgusting. My H does, I do not. ( go figure ) lol I do respect that though. I however think bringing anything into the bedroom is fun as long as both partners are ok with it.
5) SPICE IT UP! Change things up. As long as you know your partner is up for it. I am ( as u can see ) very much up for anything. lol I would love nothing more then a simple ambush. It doesn't always have to be in the bedroom at 7pm.. etc.... If you know your spouse is into that. Make the effort. Go outside your comfort zone and give it a shot. You may surprise yourself.
Ill leave it at that, as I don't want to scare anyone. lol I have tons of them...
Oh, don't stop! That comment about how "it doesn't have to be in the bedroom at 7pm was excellent. Where did I read? Can't remember... Perhaps Schnarch. Each person has a list of "conditions," and it is important for lovers to know each other's "list."
I have a GF who is WAYYY HD. But, she absolutely will not have sex with her H if she hasn't showered. No matter how many times he has told her he doesn't care if she's stinky. She just can't feel hot if her V has been "stewing at a desk all day." For years, she would get angry with her H when he would initiate if she was "dirty." He rarely ever initiated and they had an SSM for years. I don't think the shower/clean condition was the only reason. Lately, he has made great changes in his approach to her. I'm not sure how his switch flipped... Anyway, now he'll call her from work to chat and then say in a sexy way, "Be ready for me tonight. I don't want to hear any of this shower stuff." My advice to her is to shower EVERY DAY when she gets home from work so that her H can be more impromptu with acting on his desire for her.
Realizing that your mind is the sexiest part of your body. I had a gf that could get me so worked up just laying next to me and whispering what she was about to do with me. Sometimes she would whisper a fantasy of hers in my ear. Ummm WOW! I even got pretty good at it too.
Change it up and Spice it up. I agree with Diane above.
Knowing your own body and what feels good to you and what you like. How is your lover supposed to know you if you don't know yourself? This ties in I think with wanting to know yourself and wanting a "Great" sex life.
I know that when I was young and married, I was a total moron in my thinking about being a good lover, what it means, how you develop it, etc. For some reason I had it in my mind that "he should just know". Apparently, as I've come to find out, this is a common thing for women to think.
What I never even considered at that time was the fact that maybe *I* wasn't being a good lover because I was just expecting him to know what I wanted. I mean, I know there were many times when I tried very hard to lead him into the types of play and behavior I wanted. However, I did not just sit down with him directly and provide him with a road map. I didn't even know what that map would have looked like at that time. So how in the world could *I* be considered a good lover back then, when I was mystified about my own needs and desires? Had I realized that I needed to sit and comtemplate what I really needed and wanted, and that I would have to be able to articulate this to my husband, things might have been different. Instead I just got frustrated when I would half-way lead him down a path and he wouldn't just psychically know how to go down the rest of the path. So I would lead 5 paces, he would follow 4 paces, and then he'd stop dead in his tracks, waiting for more instruction.
I still maintain that he was not a good lover. I will not take responsibility for both of our parts of that equation any longer. He had an uphill battle to climb with me, but he wouldn't even put any boots on and try. I did at least try, very hard, for several years. And although I failed, he knew I was trying, it was obvious, and it was the one thing I DID state very clearly, was that I was trying to improve our sex life. That part, at least, he knew was my goal. He didn't pick up his end of that rope, other than to just follow. I needed him to lead, at least some of the time. Never happened.
Then I fumbled around just a bit during my separation, again not really learning anything and still just believing that "men should know how to please a woman and if they don't, its their responsibility to learn it".
It never seemed like any great mystery how to please a MAN. I did understand that pleasing a woman IS a mystery to a man, but I still placed all the responsibility on the man to figure it out. Being that most men seem easy to please in bed, I never felt I had to learn anything....just figured I'd have to follow their lead as they taught me what they liked. I knew what my ex-h liked, and I did take time to incorporate that into our love making. Seemed that simple. Why couldn't he take the time to learn ME? Even if I was mysterious, wouldn't it be fun to take the time to unravel the mystery?
But now...I finally get that it is my responsibility to take the mystery out (or at least 90% of it) and just learn myself and my needs, and then clearly communicate them to my partner.
My fiance spent over a year in the beginning of our relationship trying to help me get out of my old thinking and develop a new way of looking at things. The first step he took was to be very sweet and gentle about some of my personal issues (childhood issues, body issues), but then at the same time, he made it clear that it was MY responsibility to grow past them. He would be supportive and gentle, but if I wanted to mature and develop a good sex life, it was up to ME to get over my issues. Whatever I had to do to get over them, was my responsibility. Finally this sunk in. Thank god. I had spent my entire adult life trying to keep my fears and issues locked inside, but while doing that, this meant I also *kept* those fears and issues. I had to set them free and move on. I had to let them go and grow up. I had to stop clinging to the way they protected me from intimacy. Because as long as I could say I was afraid of this or that, I could also shield myself from the intimacy that would come at me if I stopped being afraid. I am so glad he held that mirror up to my face.
The next step was learning my fiances styles, preferences, tastes, and mysteries! To my great surprise, he was not "easy" to figure out, like other men had been in my life. He did not just lay it out for me like a platter of "here's what I like, now go for it". He is way more complex than that in his sexuality and desires. He is not just happy with physical pleasure...the emotional and mental stimulation has to be there, too, and not just in a small amount, either. He has a much higher desire for mental and emotional intimacy than physical intimacy. He will forego the physical if the emotional and mental isn't there.
This was a great challenge for me, but it was soooooo much fun. I had to learn so much. There was so much more to this thing than I had imagined.
Then (after he wrestled me out of my "issues"), he went to work on finding out what I liked and needed. He helped me figure out just exactly what that was, as I wasn't sure myself.
Previously, I had kinda thought that what you liked and needed were related to what would make you have an O.
I realized when I met him that it was so much deeper than that. I can have an O by myself, and I don't really "need" much of anything for that to happen (just stimulation basically). But to have great sex, with my partner, there is so much more to it than just what might cause an O.
I found out that what I liked and needed were the things that made me feel alive, passionate, sexual, randy, fun, loved, respected, cherished, lusty and lusted after, sometimes even fiesty and combative....finding out sexual acts and foreplay that provoked these kinds of feelings was a new experience for me. He helped me find them, but they poured out of me once the door was open.
Finally then, I was a good lover, too....because then I could finally know for sure what I wanted and needed, and know what he wanted and needed. Yet we both still grow, still want new things, and still explore the mysteries of each other every day.
All of the above is just my usual diatribe...however I will leave with just one practical suggestion, one which I have stated on the boards here many times....
The best way to start the process, is to make out a LOT. By simply making out and mashing with your mate, you will stir up within yourself some desire, passion, lust and arousal. KEEP it stirred up, every day if you can! By having it constantly stirred up in your body, your mind will start to regularly search for new ways to express this passion...and your it will then give you clues and ideas that you should follow up on.
Every morning before we get out of bed, my fiance and I get very sexual with each other, caressing, kissing, snuggling, but also directly touching and grabbing each other's chests and genitals. We spoon, change positions, make out some more, sometimes we get carried away and I end up sitting on top of him...sometimes this leads to happy morning sex. But usually, it doesn't. Usually it is just the happy thing that happens every morning that leaves me feeling so great all day long.
Every evening when we meet up after work, we put our stuff down, relax for a moment, and then make out again. We may do this several more times during the evening as well.
When we were first together, it was hard for me to contain my passion after these make outs and I would get totally sexually frustrated. He would just be calm and self-assured. He would explain to me that if I could just capture the feelings without letting them cause frustration, that I could feel GREAT and that then when we did have sex, it would be ever better.
It took me about 3 years to really be able to contain my sexual frustration....but I finally got it. And now I "get" the idea behind doing this.
Anyway...one last thing...about watching porn for ideas....
There are some videos which are somewhat instructional, and those may have some merit. But in general, I don't think porn should be used for instruction. I think it should be used for a fun little side-trip you take together with your partner to spice things up. You might learn something by accident, or see something that you want to try or that turns you or your partner on. But watching it specifically to learn anything I think is a mistake. Porn stars are acting, so if you watch them to learn, you will just learn how to act like you are enjoying sex. This is just my opinion and I've heard lots of men and women both saying that they've learned a lot from porn, so I may be in the minority. But the other problem with watching porn is that you start to learn how your body feels when you are being visually stimulated....and you start to forget how your body feels when you are being emotionally and mentally stimulated. That took me a long time to understand the difference, but now I do.
Lucky, thanks again for giving us a chance to have a lively discussion.
DQ said: Every morning before we get out of bed, my fiance and I get very sexual with each other, caressing, kissing, snuggling, but also directly touching and grabbing each other's chests and genitals. We spoon, change positions, make out some more, sometimes we get carried away and I end up sitting on top of him...sometimes this leads to happy morning sex. But usually, it doesn't. Usually it is just the happy thing that happens every morning that leaves me feeling so great all day long.
HEAVEN ON EARTH.
Watched a PBS show last night on R's. This old, happy couple was profiled. The woman said something about every couple having the power to make their marriage their own little version of heaven... If you let yourself/decide to do so, that is.
The morning ritual of DQ and Mr. DQ sounds like heaven to me.
Very interesting -- The idea of capturing the arousal without getting frustrated. Learning to harness it and use it. I imagine that this would allow you to "simmer" 24/7 rather than go through spurts of heat up/boil/cool down. Perhaps the cool down just never completely happens.
Thanks for the "make out often" reminder. That is an excellent idea!
One last note on this: DQ, I think that you were blessed to find a man who could guide you and accompany you to your dream. I would think that in many R's, neither partner is as seasoned or confident as your man. It will be an uphill battle for both people in some R's, and it takes willingness and effort by both people to reach the summit. Thank you for sharing your story and for being so descriptive to help us understand!
DQ - I took your kissing advice and ran with it almost a year ago now. I kiss Mrs. Cinco whenever the mood hits me to steal a kiss from her, usually many times a days. The thing is by getting her used to the idea of kissing daily, she is kissing back now.
Once in a while I will linger and make it a more passionate kiss. I tell her that I really love kissing her and that it feels so nice to me too.
She will sometimes try to do that smacking kiss like I'm her nephew. So I will kiss her again and again until I get a real lover's kiss. She can't get rid of me until I get a real kiss from her. It's almost a game that we play now. Weee!
The best part of bringing the kissing back is that we kiss while ML now. There was a time when we didn't do this.
On the simmer thing I know what you mean about that. Sometimes while we are just kissing or hugging I will get aroused. It feels so good. Not that we have to do anything about it. It could be right before diner or maybe she is on her way out. I hope it is happening for her too, I have never asked her. It gives you that nice feeling of being turned on by someone you love.
I have to ask this: If you get no feedback from your spouse, how do you know if you are good or not?
This is a real issue for me right now. I just have no confidence in myself in this area anymore and my H doesn't tell me things that I don't do right. Just his upbringing. So I am constantly in a state of wondering whether or not I am doing something right or wrong.
dug....if you get no feedback from your spouse, it is because you haven't figured out yet that you have to *push for* and *insist upon* two-way communication. If he shuts you down when you are trying to get feedback, then you are allowing him to shut you down.
If two people are intimate and close enough to actually have sex with each other, but are not close enough to discuss sex, then there are very big problems.
Stop wondering what is going on and demand answers, in a respectful and playful way. Then be prepared for honest answers, so that if you hear "well actually this and that could be a lot better" then you will not be hurt, but will actually appreciate the information so that you can make sex better for both of you. ALSO be prepared to tell him that not communicating his needs to you is turning YOU off.
lol 
