Counseling or Divorce

[smartcookie]

I'm just curious. I must be the slowest woman on the planet.

I've asked my H every possible way I can think of for the past 12 months to go to IC for his emotional/verbal abuse, control, emotional disconnect issues.

I told him tonight, I feel like we're separated but living in the same house. He said he feels married, but not.

I told him that I've hurt him, & he's hurt me. He said he's forgiven me & is ready to move forward. I told him I can't move forward when he keeps doings things that damage the trust in our M. I can't move forward when I'm the verbal/emotional abuse police in the M.

I told him that I didn't know if we could heal while together. I've been going to IC for 2 1/2 years to build my self-esteem so that I don't become a doormat/abuse victim ever again.

I told him that I've asked him for 12 months to go to IC, & his answer by his actions has been "it sucks to be SC".

He asked "what if I go back to (former counselor) & she says I am healthy or only need to go once a month.?"

In order words, it doesn't matter what SC thinks. A counselor is a trained professional. I'm only the wife.

If your S said........

"go to IC or I'm filing for divorce" what would you say ??

Is this about counseling for him, or is this about control ??

I'm guessing it's still about control, but no he doesn't need counseling.

[artemesia]

Sounds like you're dealing with some huge issues with your H. It also appears that maybe he hasn't learned anything from the difficulties in your R.

We had a stressful couple months in our R before we got married (and a lot had to do with me and my issues) and he basically said that I needed counseling and if I didn't go, he didn't know if he could continue the way we were going. I went. I wanted things to work and I wanted him to be happy in our R.

Okay, what you two are doing isn't quite working since both of you feel disconnected from each other.

Have you asked your H what he thinks should happen in order for you both to feel better about your M? In lieu of counseling what does he think should happen in order for you two to connect with each other?

His control and emotional/verbal abuse are huge issues. They whittle away at a person. I don't know, but his response to you and your counseling isn't very loving at all. Does he really want this to work?

[Virtually_Handsome]

(((((((cookie))))))

Well, I finally decided that you could lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. As long as he thinks it's all you, I don't think it makes a hill of beans of difference if he sees an IC of not. He's just going to hear what he wants to hear, anyway. I guess it doesn't matter if it is about counseling of control, when you gen down to it. He isn't going to do it, anyway.

OK, that was pretty negative, but as you know, I've been living the same sort of thing, and that's where I ended up.

HUGS!

[gucci loafer]

I've asked my H every possible way I can think of for the past 12 months

I told him tonight

I told him that I've hurt him, & he's hurt me.

I told him that I didn't know if we could heal while together.

told him that I've asked him for 12 months to go to IC,

SC,
You know what they say about the definition of insanity don't you?

I believe you have told him and told him and told him. Sounds to me like the communication is just fine. Looks like he is communicating back to you something else. I don't think either one of you is listening. He is communicating to you that he feels pressure. I don't believe pressure works. I would say that it isn't working again here.

To get to the point... He doesn't take you seriously. Will he in another 12 months? 2 years? 3 years?

Should you say go to counseling or I am getting a divorce?

Again. I don't agree with this approach because it is still pressure in disguise...

I would recommend (and have always thought in your case)to back off completely and quit trying so hard to find something or some verbal comment you can say to him that will suddenly get through to him. It isn't working in my book...

1st.. Back off and become distant and in a world of your own.
Not mean, but distant and seemingly to be thinking about something.. Get lost in some new or old interests that leave him alone and keep you busy. You don't have him asking the right questions. No more work on the relationship. I still believe you are doing all the work and allowing him to skate by with as little as possible. He certainly isn't aware of how serious you are.( and it doesn't look like it is because you haven't communciated it) If you are as serious as you say, then at some point you may have to put the relationship on the line. You don't seem to be willing to do that. Maybe you can find some magic trick that I don't know about.

I have always hoped you would recognize how fast men are willing to change when the woman says "enough." This site is filled with them. I would bet most of their wives were doing the same things that you have tried. Many of the men on here have admitted it.

And then when he gets curious and asks you what is up with you...

Lay the bomb on him.....

"Nothing is really wrong, but I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME THINKING.
I HAVE DECIDED that this just isn't working for ME. I think we should separate and take some time apart."

If this man loves you, then he needs a crisis. Either the abuse is unaccetable to you or it is not. From my experience and from reading thousands of threads and experiences of other men, I conclude this is the best way to wake them up and get them to take you seriously and to WANT to make the necessary changes to make the relationship work. It eliminates ultimatums. I wish I knew the number of men that I have seen respond beautifully when the woman shows by action that she means business. Sorry to say that men don't seem to get it until it is almost too late. As much as I would like to say it isn't the case, I have to conclude it is.

Sometimes separation really is the BEST thing for a relationship.
Time apart gives both people room to breathe and really see it in a new light. It stops the same talks and conversations that seem to keep you going round and round and round...

This takes conviction and resolve. I see your feelings slowly dying. As Dobson says... "A blowout is better than a small leak"


I can't and won't give you a guarantee with this approach.
I can tell you that at some point that allowing abuse is your responsibility. There is not one thing wrong with the simple fact of coming to the conclusion of NO MORE. Unaccetable. NOW.
Here is what I have decided about it and this is what I AM DOING about it. It isn't up to "us" anymore.

The results may just surprise you. "Why did it take me leaving for you to change" (How many times have we heard a man or a woman on here tell us they heard that?) Suddenly they are reading everything about relationships, begging for counseling, doing the dishes, watching the kids, laundry. These changes are for "me" and not to get you back, is what we hear.

And so on.... Why not before? I wish I knew. I only know that a crisis is usually a life changer.

No crisis. Same old same old. Here is what I would be thinking....
"Now what does she want? All she wants to do is talk about the relationship and talk about counseling. Talk talk talk. I just want peace."

That is what many men are thinking when a woman keeps wanting to "work" on the relationship day after day after day.

Total 180 when she stops giving and trying. If he loves you. He should respond and make the necessary effort.

[Sara]

Cookie,

I think the two of you could really get a lot out of a Retrouvaille weekend. I know you have said before that with him not working the cost would be difficult. But they are willing to work with you, they only ask for a small deposit, and then a donation of whatever you can give. I think you will find that it is worth much more than they ask you to donate. The website is http://www.helpourmarriage.org.

[DownNotOut...yet]

Hi Cookie,

go to IC or I'm filing for divorce" what would you say

Depends on if I really loved the person and wanted the marriage.

I have to agree with what Gucci says.

I am now going to say what no one among us long timers and "limbo livers" will say aloud but most know it deep down. FEAR rules us. We fear putting ourselves and our spouses in a "put up or shut up" situation. I think you and I and a bunch of others around here are afraid of change and afraid of possibly being unmarried so we try to talk, talk, talk, blah, blah, blah, we do small variations on cheeseless stuff etc... At some point we have to say, here is what I NEED from you or I'm out. Either they will do it or they won't. We will leave or not leave. IF you had been dating your husband for only 6 months and this stuff arose, you would leave, no? I know I would leave in my sitch. This far into marriage it is more complicated for all of us and we are more comfortable and also more scared of the world out there so we schlep from day to day hoping for the best. Almost no one I've seen around here has broken out of limbo without drastic action. Very scary but I truly believe that is what numerous people around here need to do.

Is this about counseling for him, or is this about control

Doesn't matter one bit. If it's what you need from him and he won't do it, you live with it or you don't. When dying of heat and thirst in the desert, you don't care why it is hot. You get out of the desert and get a drink, or you hang around and die. To be fair, I can point these same words at myself.

[NewMe]

(((Cookie))),

I'm the wrong one to advise you on a control issue (as you've given me some 2x4's on my own controlling ways). What I do know, like Gucci elaborated on so well, is that you need to take action before he will/may "get it".

My W never told me I had to go to MC/IC or do anything "or else". She said she was "unhappy" and we should go see someone (MC) - and we did. I made some changes, but it wasn't enough or, at least, didn't allow her healing. Then she dropped the bomb. The "unhappy" comment got me motivated - the bomb put me in turbo mode. I couldn't picture my life w/o my wife and her desire to leave was real - and all I needed.

If you think your sitch will not change w/o husband addressing his problems, then you need to make a tough call for your action, not his. Or, if you think you can change your part of the problem, if there is any (boundary issue?), then you can address that.

You've been an incredible help to all us DAM's, I'm praying for you.

NM

[confusedinpa]

To be frank, my wife had been trying to get me to understand/recognize that there was a problem for years (according to her 8 of the 9.5 years we've been married).

We tried counseling last year - I only decided to go when she came home one day and said she's got an appointment that nite so I need to take care of dinner for our 2 boys (who will turn 7 and 3 in 2 months). I spent a year going to counseling every week wondering why I was there.

I didn't understand until Jan 9th this year when my wife told me she filed for divorce.

Now it's too late - we're still going to counsuling and I'm doing applying a 180 as I understand now what she's been asking for all those years.

Last nite, we went out to dinner before we went to counseling (it's almost like our date nite now). During dinner se told me that she was really proud of me for all the changes that I've made and know it will make me a better person and father. Problem is that what I'm doing now is exactly what's she's been trying to get for all those years. It just that she reached a point where you keep trying to get something and you're denied it, you wind up giving up and no longer wanting it. She also said that she still can't get past how much I've hurt her so she can't see me as her husband. It really hurt me and made me sad.

I hope that you can get through to your spouse before you reach the same point.

[healthydad]

SC,
You've helped me through my situation in so many ways - often stepping in to help me with a better understanding of B's pain and confusion. Your words and insights helped me love her with compassion - and also helped me avoid any of the anger that could have interfered with my growth over these last few months. For me, I eventually arrived at the point where I realized how my time spent thinking about her pain and her issues - and how she treated me - was also and more accurately - a way of avoiding my own openness to some truths about myself.

I agree with a lot of what Gucci offered in his post - sometimes we just need the separation - but not for him to find himself - rather for us to find ourselves - if your H does while you're separated, that's a bonus - but I don't think it can be the goal - since setting up a goal immediately distracts us from ourselves - since that goal brings in all the trappings of expectations.

I know that I've made a lot of mistakes in my process - and have also hurt B and myself over the last few months - but I also know that our separation was the only thing that could have given me the kind of space and calm that I needed to confront the deepest of my fears...and the realization that I was looking for answers in B and our M that had nothing to do with her or us - they were answers that were holed up inside of me...I don't know if that would be the case for you - since you have spent so much time working on you already - but at least that space might help give you some of the peace you need to learn something more about yourself - what? I don't know - but it's easy for parts of ourselves to remain elusive so long as we concentrate our efforts and energies on thinking of what needs to change in a person we love - and by whom we want to feel loved...

I admire you, SC.
Carlos.

[MrBond]

Hey SC.

Have you tried writing it down for him? Maybe even writing out a contract of what you and he will and will not do to each other. Your H sounds as stubborn as my W and sometimes communicating to her in a different way works.

Then you can hang it somewhere prominently as a daily reminder. Sounds kinda small, but you've tried everything else.

I think you need to find a different way of talking to him. I know it's more work on your part, but maybe there's a way of getting him to change without directly telling him.

For example, with my W, I could not tell her that she seemed depressed and that she should talk about it. She would immediately shut down and say "I'm fine." Instead, I bought her a card that talked about support and wrote a message in it for her. She appreciated that much more.