WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 2

[shark]

There is something I want to share that I tell my 8 and 9 year old boys.

I ask them:

What do you do when you do not like someone at school?

Do you tease them and make fun of them and interact with them or do you walk on by and ignore them?

When someone makes fun of you they in some weird way like you. Making fun of you makes them smile and that is the greatest gift you can give.

I say it like this: There are kids in your school who look different or act different right? What do you do? Ignore them right?

My kids always understand although hard they get it becasue they do it and they can feel it.

You cannot feel what your wife is doing so you get confused and shook up.

If she wanted it to be over she would go and be gone. I mean really gone. Everything is the rollercoaster. So go satnd in the line and be glad your not on the rollercoaster and watch with a bag of popcorn.

As far as the house goes my wife does the same thing, always goes in fact my wife feels she has to file divorce for some reason to get away or closure or something. But every night she sleeps in the same bed as me even though I BEGGED her to show me signs she is serious. I BEGGED HER.

Do you really need to be begged to avoid someone you want out of your life for the rest of it?

Shark

[MrBond]

See, the thing is that she is conflicted. Which is great.

If she says that she's going to stay, do you want her to only be happy when you're away? No! You want her to miss you and count the days you're going to come back.

I don't know how badly she says she was hurt, but there comes a point where you have to let go and forgive. Some people say that it isn't that simple, but I say that it is. All it takes is for them to say it first and believe it. And quite frankly, unless you killed someone, I think everyone can be forgiven.

Your W has to want to forgive you to let herself be free. And that's something you can't really help her get over. Emotions are a bitch I have to tell you.

[confusedinpa]

I don't know how badly she says she was hurt, but there comes a point where you have to let go and forgive.

She said that everything was wonderful before we got married, but in the year after we got married, I changed jobs with much broader responsiblities and we bought a new house. She said she felt it started to change. I had started pulling away. So she said for the last 8 years, she has felt I was not interested and neglected her emotionally. The she felt over the last 3 years it had gotten worse and I was mean to her when ever she tried to talk about the relationship or us. She felt that she has given me the best years of her life and all the love that she has and I've thrown it all away. So in short, she's very hurt. It hurst me just to write it, but I did acknowledge and validate her when she said it.

About 1.5 weeks ago, she did say that she could (didn't say that she did, just that she could), but she can't get past seeing me as the person who hurt her so badly. Since she doesn't have any positive emotions left for me, only negative, she's not sure about planting a new seed of love for someone that makes her so angry.

I know she's angry, as she's told me. I know she's also afraid of being vulnerable and getting hurt again, as she's told me. I know she feels she doesn't have a good decision to make (stay in the marriage or divorce), as she's told me. I've validated and acknowledged these feelings the few times she's been comfortable in sharing them.

I've asked her not to leave (during my first 2 weeks of panic). I've told her that if she wants a divorce, I know there's nothing I can do to stop her. I've asked her to consider a separation instead of a divorce, but she's says she doesn't know how to do that, nor will she try to find out. I've told her that I want us to try to save the marriage because I do love her (I know that's pressure, but it seems to come up about once/week - typically after/during counseling).

Now we're both in limbo. I'm trying my best to be the best that I can be. Hopefully she's not just waiting it out (custody hearing is on Tues) and the divorce will be final in just over 98 weeks (unless I agree to it, then it will be final in just over 6 weeks). My friends, lawyers and therapist says to fight the custody to drag out the decision (I can push it a couple of months) as they feel she will leave as soon as she gets a legal right to take the kids. I don't know if that's what she is really waiting for, I hope not.

Part of me wants to fight the custody hearing as I don't want her to leave and it will be financially devasting for us, but I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to control her again (that's been a big issue in her mind, particularly over the last 3 years). It's a tough decision.

I think the right thing to do is to try and keep her in the house by providing a "safe, comfortable" enviornment for her (stray cat theory) while making her feel that she can leave at any time, so it's her choice. I know every person's situation is different and there are so many factors that determine what is the right move. This is going to be the biggest decision of my life. I'm scared I will make the wrong one.

[confusedinpa]

It was an odd counseling session last nite.

We had a nice dinner together like we had for the last several times we went to counseling together. We talked and laughed - I purposely tried to keep conversation about the kids at a minimum and just let her talk about her (like when we were dating)

I put my arm around her as we walked back to the car, but we didn't kiss like we had the other times. When we got to the counseling session, I put my arm around her again as we walked, but again we didn't kiss.

Prior to getting in to see the counselor, she brought up the custody hearing. I told her I hadn't given it much thought, but asked if she wanted us to drive down together. She said she did. Very odd.

When we got to the counseling session, she started to talk about how difficult this past weekend was as it was VDay. She said it was really difficult as she kept remembering how aweful she felt from last VDay because of how uninterested/detached I was to her. She had tried to make things so special and I completely dismissed it. I acknowledged and validated how she felt and also recognized and thanked her for how I knew it was hard for her this weekend, but I really appreciated how much effort she put into make a special VDay dinner.

She then talked about how after the kids went to bed, she acknowledged how I recognized that she needed space and gave it to her.

The counselor then got onto me about how I felt and why did I behave the way I did in the past. This has been a recurring thing for the past several sessions. The major break through was that she felt that I was suffering from a form of depression since 2000 due to work and home life stress. It wasn't a depression where I had wild mood swings, but one where I fell into a neutral feeling (neither good or bad) with little/no mood shifts. The counselor said it seems that my wife signing the paper was a traumatic enough event to snap me out of it. The counselor did acknowledge that she feels this is really who I am and that I'm not faking it.

The counselor then said that she felt that there wasn't anything that my wife or I could have done other than getting medication. I wasn't sure how to respond to that as I felt she obsolved my wife of any ownership of the problem/situation.

After we talked about her findings for a few minutes, I asked the counselor so now that we think we know what happened, now what? I didn't get a strong sense that there was a plan/directions. Unfortunately, I don't see her one on one until Friday (normally its Weds but I have a meeting I can't get out of).

On the way home my wife and I chatted about the session. I could tell she was a little sad as she looked a little teary eyed. I held her hand to comfort her. She held it back briefly. I did stop when she stopped. I acknowledged and validated how hurt/angry she feels.

She then talked about how she feels she wasted her best years of her life and missed out on a lot of fun that she could have had as a single person as well as a lot of love she could have had as part of a married couple. Now she feels that with "baggage" she won't be able to find any of that. I was annoyed at the "baggage" remark again and wanted to jump up and down to say I want to try to have the love and joy as a married couple, but I controlled my self and acknowledged and validate her feelings.

I'm sure I crossed the line when I mentioned that I know she feels like she doesn't have a good decision to make.

She then got on again about how she feels like before we were roommates and now we are roommates that are friends. Its just that now the friend (me) is flirting with her. She just can't get past seeing me as someone who hurt her so badly plus there hadn't been much positive memories in such a long time.

I tried to acknowledge and validate, but I wound up getting into what perhaps we could try to have positive moments in the present. She said she felt that's what she thought was happening now. She said she really enjoyed dinner tonite. I acknowledged and validated. Then she gave some examples of things she felt we were doing to have positive moments - watching Lost together at nite, dinner, "tough parenting" decisions/choices, etc.

We went to bed very shortly after we got home as the session ran really late. We talked some more. I had noticed that I was touching her arm while we were in bed. I jerked it away and said oops, sorry about that. She laughed. I told her that I am trying to respect her boundaries and really didn't want to do anything that was making her uncomfortable. We talked about what she was ok with - i.e. playing with her hair, rubbing her back/legs/feet/arm. She said she didn't like it when I was circling her breast or going under her panties to just the start of her pubic hair (which I hadn't done for 3 weeks).

I talked about how in the 5 Languages of Love book about how one of the examples/exercises was to write on a card 3 things that she would like me to do. She said that's not where she's at, but I thought we could take a variation on that and write down things that she's comfortable with me doing and we can go from there. I don't think it went over very well, but she fell asleep shortly afterwards.

Very odd, but I must continue.....

[confusedinpa]

I'm really starting to get anxious - seems like lunch time when things slows down at work - it's the worst. I really want to call her, just to chat and hear or voice, but know that's wrong. She did send me an email this morning suggesting a movie we could see with our kids this Sat. I waited about 30 minutes to respond with a light email laughing about the movie.

It's so hard as I am really confused as to how do we get beyond roommates as friends. She says she can't see beyond the person who hurt her so badly over the years. I don't know if she's still trying to. I wished our counselor would talk to her about but she never brings it up. I'm tempted at times to bring it up, but don't want to make her defensive.

I had thought about treating this like we were just starting to date, but it's hard as we were intimate on the second date (which was the day after we met). It would have been the day we met if it wasn't a bad time of the month for her.

I know I need to take it slow to give her time to get used to or rediscover the me that is not clouded by the depression (I don't think I'll ever get used to saying that).

I had tried to suggest taking a couple of days away from it all with just the 2 of us. Of course I did that on Thurs when I totally pissed her off by asking about a "innocent remark" a guy had posted on her facebook wall. Yes, my timing is that good. Perhaps I should bring it up again.

So how do we move past this limbo we're in? Or am I doomed?

[spellfire]

I still see you as very tied up in her. You are making progress in the areas of self-control, and listening skills. Kudos there.

I do not necessarily think you have to push the separation, but I do firmly believe you need to turn your eyes away from her and onto yourself. You are still monitoring her every move and your every interaction. You are not "letting go" and working on you. Although counter-intuitive, this is what needs to happen in order to snap her out of her pity party about the past.

Stay strong, do not let yourself fall into blaming her. Forgive if you start to feel resentful, but also cut yourself some slack too. You are not the only one responsible for the state of your R, but you are having to step up and work on saving it.

[AnotherNightmare]

CIP,

I just caught up on your situation after my Retrouvaille weekend. In the next few days, after I have processed a little more, I will post more about this overwhelming and wonderful experience in my own thread. I want to repeat one of the key things I have so far posted there to you:

"I went to Retrouvaille hoping to break my wife. It broke me."

The only way to save your M goes through you. You said again that you want her to take responsibility. I said the same thing over and over again, even directly to her. I said it to a friend last Friday when I picked up the kids from the school bus, 4 hours before Retrouvaille started. And I kept thinking through a major part of the weekend "when will she finally admit her mistakes?" And then it hit me out of nowhere, and I realized that all this is my perception of the truth and it has nothing to do with her, it is me, ME. It turned me into a new person, and she recognized this new person, this new me as the one she used to love and feels optimistic about being able to love again. It did not happen instantly, it was a process that started Saturday morning and has not ended yet. But with the Retrouvaille weekend as the catalyst, I had taken a giant step by Sunday afternoon when we left our room.

So again, I can only repeat what so many have said on this board before, discover yourself! Retrouvaille will truly help you with that, and in the process you may rediscover your S.

One other thing: women want to be wanted. They do not want to be needed. They are needed by their children. They do not want their H to be another child. Ask yourself if you want her for who she is, or if you need her because she meets some of your needs.

AN

[MrBond]

CIP,

You've gotten alot better in terms of the validation part. Now you've got to really stop the physical stuff. Things like touching her breast or around her pubic area, screams that you need sex. And women don't want that. Light re-assuring touches are what you need to do, and I'm not sure you're even at that point. Stop trying to fill her love buckets.

Right now she doesn't trust you. Time and time again she tells you this and acts it out. I told you that she was going to start having regrets and blame you for more than she intially did. The stuff about her thinking that she missed out on her past. Well you know what? I'm sure you have things that you've regretted. But you know what? You've moved on. A life without regrets is what she needs to get to.

I still say you need a physical situation for both you and her to get out of the roommate phase. It'll give both of you a chance to see what you both want. Note, I said want and not NEED.

She's still pushing for this so obviously what you're doing isn't working. Do something different. Don't worry about her not wanting to come back once you're separated. It's a chance you take and in the mindset she's in now, she's not planning to come back anyway. When you make the decision, it'll make her rethink things. Right now she feels like you've forced her to go for a divorce, well, show her you support her by giving her a pseudo one. Make her WANT to come back.

[confusedinpa]

I do not necessarily think you have to push the separation, but I do firmly believe you need to turn your eyes away from her and onto yourself. You are still monitoring her every move and your every interaction. You are not "letting go" and working on you. Although counter-intuitive, this is what needs to happen in order to snap her out of her pity party about the past.

Spellfire,

That's an interesting perspective of snapping her out of her pity party. She told me that she's mad and sad and feels that she doesn't have a good decision to make - she feels that neither staying married or getting divorce are good choices. At times I feel like jumping up and down and saying then try giving the marriage another chance first and before jumping on the divorce bandwagon.

From her comment on missing out, it does sound like a pity party. I never thought of it that way.

I've really been focusing on trying to get a life - playing with the kids, hitting the heavy bag/weights in my basement twice a week, working through the honey-do list and reading (mostly relationship books, so I'm not sure if that's really getting a life).

At times I do want to blame her as I feel all it will take to get us off this divorce road is for her to decide to give the marriage another try. In her mind, she seems to be thinking that she is by staying in the house during these several weeks (while the divorce clock is ticking). I'm tempted to push for the seperation only because I feel you can't really try while the clock is running. I've tried to talk to her about this in the past and it didn't really work out.

Last nite, the closest I got for her to thinking about trying is her comment about trying to have positive moments for the present and what ever future we have. Not sure if she really believes that or what, but she did say it. I know I should only believe 50% of what she says now, but I hope this is one of them.

I know I've changed and I know she's seen the sudden/drastic transformation. Even our counselor (my therapist) which we started seeing after she hit me with the divorce papers, says that this is the real me, and believes it's not an act. My wife has told me that she's proud of my changes but just doesn't know how to handle them. Now she just need to decide to see past the years of pain/hurt so she can love again.

I know I can't help her with that. The people on this board and my therapist has told me time and time again. I wish I could as I would give anything just for one more chance. I know she knows that as I've told her during my 2 weeks of panic.

I know I'm a survivor and I don't need her. I want her because I love her.

I've got to stay focused on being the best person that I can be. Part of that will be kind, loving and attentive to myself as well as to her and the kids.

[confusedinpa]

AnotherNightmare,

Glad to hear your retrouvaille weekend went well. Can't wait to hear the details.

Ironically, my wife sees that she's turned me into a different person that has neglected her over the years. Unfortunately, she just doesn't know how to get past all the past hurt/pain. Sounds like your wife had made the leap. Did retrouvaille help her feel optimistic about love again or did she have it before the weekend? Just curious how it happened.

One other thing: women want to be wanted. They do not want to be needed. They are needed by their children. They do not want their H to be another child. Ask yourself if you want her for who she is, or if you need her because she meets some of your needs.

AN

That's a good reminder why needy is unattractive. I think I've been feeling needy but over the last few weeks, I've found that I've been doing more of my own laundry (as well as the kids and towels). Not sure if she's doing it intentionally as in the past she had expressed she felt like she was just a housekeeper or if she's just so preoccupied with the situation that she's just hasnt really kept an eye on it.

Something I need to stay focused on, showing her that I want her for her, not need her to take care of me. That's going to be a tough one for me to figure out/balance.