RJRJR's Thread

[Bagheera]

RJRJR wrote:

I don't know if this is the right place to post, but I guess I'm asking questions based on the 4 phases. Our marriage was going well until our third child (son) was born. My wife almost exclusively devoted her attention to him. I asked her to spend time together and to have sex. Most of the times, she turned to him even more or ignored my requests by not saying or doing anything. After about 18 months, I was wearing down, it was getting old. But then she stopped breast-feeding and things started to get better. Then, oops, she got pregnant again and this time was extremely sick. We had no time together, and now, without enough energy, I had to do all (ALL) the housework and we had even less time together than before.

The pregnancy ended in a miscarriage, which brought us together in a big way. But then, oops, she got pregnant again, sick again, and it was me all over again doing all the housework, having no time with my wife. Late in the pregnancy, I couldn't take it anymore. I did a lot of reading, online and in books. I was in a men's group at our church, and we did a book review on Larry Crabb's book Men and Women. The last date night we had was to go see the movie Fireproof. Everywhere I turned I felt like I was doing as much as I could to get things back on track but that she was ignoring me and authors like Larry Crabb defined her as selfish; he said spouses need to be "other centered" which is how I was trying very hard to be.

Then I came across the SSM book, and every page it seemed it was talking about me. I finally figured out that without closeness to my wife, I had lost my feelings of being connected to her. Then I talked to my wife about how I felt. She had no clue that her continual rejection of me over the past 2 years was creating a problem. I told her I did not feel connected anymore, but I didn't know how to change it because I had been trying, asking for time, attention and sex, but she was rejecting me.

She promised to do better. I told her I was going to back off serving her (housework) because I had no energy and without a connection with her, I felt I had no way of recharging my batteries. Now the baby came. We have always had problems with her not wanting to do housework of any kind. It's not getting done at all now. And I stopped doing any. Oh, and she told me she thought I was always angry, so that's why she stepped backed. I told her it wasn't intentional, but I recognized that I was much more discontent because she wasn't doing anything to me my needs and rejected me when I asked her to do something that made me feel important to her. Then I told her that the reason I have been discontent is that I have been asking her to meet my needs, but she has chosen not to. That's when she promised to do better. That was almost 2 months ago, still no change.

I have really enjoyed myself, going back into woodwork as my hobby and building things. Putting energy into tinkering with our cars, which I enjoy. And trying to spend more time with the kids - but I have found that the tension in our relationship adversely affects my relationship with our kids, which is something else she picked up on and said was a reason she took a step back. I have found my previously high sex drive is pretty much gone. It feels good not to be in bondage to the high sex drive. But I also found that since the baby was born, she has returned to be (was sleeping on the sofa every night - never really understood why - claimed she wasn't comfortable anywhere else), but I am not comfortable with her there. I feel like she's invading my space. I question whether or how long it will take for those feelings to return, especially if she doesn't make any effort to do things differently. Baby is now a month old and she is back on the sofa. Fine by me, when we do sleep in the same bed, I don't like her being too close. It used to be that I always wanted to be as close to her as I could be, that's what I enjoyed, even if we weren't having sex.

I guess my question is what am I to be doing to meet my spouse's needs? She won't spend time together. Can't have sex for another few weeks per her doctor, and I'm not confident she will initiate anyway when it is time. I just spent most of the last 12-18 months doing the majority of the housework. I have bought her little gifts once in awhile, but it never appears as though she genuinely appreciates them. I relieve her of cooking usually once a week by ordering in or going out.

What's left? I honestly don't know what else I could be doing or could have done to make things turn out any differently. Perhaps I was doing too much and she became complacent. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm a giving person, and I guess I have the attitude that if I bend over backwards for you, you're not going to take advantage of me. Apparently I was wrong - with my own spouse! And I told her I felt she was taking advantage of me.

I'm open to suggestions. But I have told her how I felt, that I have needs that aren't being met. If she doesn't have any interest in making an investment into the marriage, I feel like I'm wasting my time pursuing her. Given that it's been almost 3 years now, I don't see things getting any better until she decides she can positively influence the outcome. I tried to have her read the SSM book with me. She read the 1st chapter, but nothing else.

Any ideas? Otherwise, I'm going back to the workshop - I'm kind of enjoying this self-healing thing!

[LG nm12]

RJRJR,

I'm going to be blunt: Her vagina and her mental state have been through a whole lot of trauma in the past few years. Birth, sick pregnancy, miscarriage, sick pregnancy, birth again. Ay yay yay! I wouldn't want a penis anywhere near me if I were her. Especially if it means she might get pregnant all over again. Do you have any idea what goes on in a woman's body and mind throughout that entire process? It is a monumental transformation, it is painful, it messes with your hormones and compromises your mental health. She needs to be exempt from sex for a while, with no penalty.

All you can do is be gentle with her and kind and loving. Recognize all that she's been through and tell her that she is amazing for it. GENTLY remind her that you want to find your way back to a loving relationship again. You want her in your bed, and you want to feel welcome to touch her and hold her. And then let it breathe a bit, with no expectations of sex. Promise her you'll wear protection so she won't have to fear another pregnancy.

She's been through sheer hell and needs respect and some time to heal both physically and mentally. Please, please be patient. You will have your love again.

It's been 14 months since the birth of my son, and I still have a few raw nerves (both mental and physical) from the birth and the first few months of the shock of being a new mother.

I hope this perspective is somewhat helpful to you.

Lucky

[Bagheera]

Greetings, RJ;

The description of your marriage sounds quite familiar to me, in that your wife has fallen into the very common trap of the CHILD-CENTERED MARRIAGE. How this happens is difficult for most men to understand, but one of the first things you will have to do is to accept the fact that Motherhood changes a woman permanently: it forces severe physical changes in their bodies, it takes them on a hormonal roller-coaster ride, it generates feelings of intense love and connection with each new child -- often to the extent of pushing everyone else out for a time, and it places a great weight of responsibility on the mother's shoulders -- they feel completely responsible for the nurturing and management of another human being's entire life -- a great weight indeed. Each woman handles all of this differently, but many become so wrapped up in the children (especially babies), that they make the children the center of their lives, and expect YOU to join them in making the children the center of the marriage: around which everything else revolves and the lens through which everything is filtered.

What these women fail to realize is that IF they want a healthy stable environment in which to raise their children, they MUST fight their natural motherly instinct to focus entirely on the children, and work to keep the COUPLE as the nucleus or center of the marriage. If Mom and Dad are happy within the marriage, and can keep their couple's connection strong and stable, then the children will have the kind of environment to grow up that Mom dreams of. Instead, these mothers (my wife included) stop doing ANYTHING to maintain a close connection with their husbands (they don't have the time, energy, or inclination to: their lives are already overwhelmed and full with just the children), and instead expect YOU to follow them in making the children the center of your lives: and if you DON'T, then you're a selfish brute who's shirking your obvious responsibility. She will not understand your failure to join her efforts, and will resent it --> and if you become angry and frustrated, especially if that anger (or even some jealousy) comes out toward the children, then you, sir, have become the outsider and an enemy, and she will circle the wagons around herself and the children and feel perfectly justified in doing so. Sound familiar?

This is not an easy problem to fix, and unfortunately, YOU are probably the last person that she will listen to if you try to point out the pit-falls of the child-centered marriage: especially if she has felt unsupported by you in the past, and up until now she has been feeling your anger and frustration instead. In my own case, I had to accept that fact that as long as we had babies, or toddlers, or pre-schoolers in our house, that THEY would be the center of my wife's existence. It wasn't until those kids were getting on their first school-bus that I had a chance of getting my wife to turn some attention back to us as a couple again.

So the first thing I will advise is that you accept the FACT that the woman you married no longer exists -- she has been profoundly and permanently changed by the experience of motherhood. This doesn't mean that she can't be loving, sexy, and romantic to you, again -- but with a baby in her arms or a youngster tugging on her skirt, her romantic self is buried and suppressed: YOUR JOB, sir, is to figure out how to coax her inner-diva out again, make her feel alright about doing so, and get her to see the advantages of maintaining your connection as a couple: that doing so is extremely refreshing, rejuvenating , and healthy for the children too. You have, in fact, become the "keeper of the passion flame" while your wife has small children to care for. It will be up to you to gently turn her laser-beam focus off the children every how and then, and remind her what is it like to be a *passionate woman* again -- something that can feel very, very far away for her when there are diapers to change, laundry to wash, rooms to pick up, errands to run, and so on....

You wrote:

Then I talked to my wife about how I felt. She had no clue that her continual rejection of me over the past 2 years was creating a problem. I told her I did not feel connected anymore, but I didn't know how to change it because I had been trying, asking for time, attention and sex, but she was rejecting me. She promised to do better. I told her I was going to back off serving her (housework) because I had no energy and without a connection with her, I felt I had no way of recharging my batteries. Now the baby came. We have always had problems with her not wanting to do housework of any kind. It's not getting done at all now.

An extremely bad move, RJ. I know that you feel justified in what you did: it was Tit for Tat -- I won't do my part if you don't do yours -- behavior, but THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR WILL NEVER FIX YOUR MARRIAGE. Yes, there are times, when someone is being taken so much for granted or being taken advantage of that cutting off support is a way to "wake up" the non-responding spouse, but NOT when a new baby arrives. Here is what you missed: one the most important ways in which a woman feels truly loved is when they feel supported, cared for, and cherished by their man, and without a connection to her "putting out" later on for your having done housework during the day. It's hard to do, believe me I know from experience, but you need to work on meeting the needs of your wife and children as an exercise in giving on your part, without expectations. Make it an expression of your love for them, and your wife will, in turn, accept it as such - many women, especially mothers, consider "Acts of Service" as their No. 1 "Love Need:" the top thing you can do to make them feel loved.

Finally, take a close look at yourself and how your approach to your romantic relationship with your wife may have changed or evolved from your courtship. Have you given all control of such over to your wife, and now wait expectantly for HER to be the initiator? One of the frequent results of a developing SSM (with an HD husband and an LD wife), is that the man stops being The Man, in the romantic relationship, and thus shoots himself in the foot further. This is due to self-preservation and an attempt to keep one's feelings from getting hurt, since being The Man involves taking on an active role and taking risks, but your natural reaction to rejection leads to MORE rejection as a matter of course. I've written enough above, so I'll point you to a previous post of mine, and let you chew on it. Is this perhaps part of the problem too?

Take care, and best of luck;

Bagheera

[Delil@h]

An extremely bad move, RJ. I know that you feel justified in what you did: it was Tit for Tat -- I won't do my part if you don't do yours behavior, but THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR WILL NEVER FIX YOUR MARRIAGE

I agree 100%

My H does this... he is still saying when you change Ali I will.
*SIGH*

It leaves me feeling like I am withering on the vine.

. Here is what you missed: one the most important ways in which a woman feels truly loved is when they feel supported, cared for, and cherished by their man, and without a connection to her "putting out" later on for your having done housework during the day

Bingo~

I have said this once if not a million times.

I want to feel important to you outside the bedroom.
( Tip * there is a lot more to me that what is in between my legs.*)

When Men dont get this ?
It makes it seem like all you care about is getting off.

~Ali

Edit to add..

H: Well honey what do you mean You wont have sex with me? I did x, y or z.

W : Oh so you did them cause you want something not cause you care?
She ends up hurt......


When you do things to show you love her you have to do it w/o expectation.

Would you enjoy the sex if you know when she did it ?
It was only to get you to do x , y or z?
?

[saffie]

RJRJR,

You sound like one of the kids whining away.

I have four children so I do appreciate what you are going through.....and your M sounds not unlike how mine had gotten to....but your mindset is in the wrong place.

For goodness sakes......I am assuming it was you who CAUSED your W to be pregnant so you are in this together. You need to work on this.....and hiding in your workshop won't fix it.

[RJRJR]

I have a thread in http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1708951&page=0#Post1708951

And I responded to you over there. Thanks for writing.