Hi Dudess: Thanks for your input - and for the reminder that there have been small signs of her calming down just a bit...however tintsy wintsy...
Whenever I ask her how she's doing she says, "Great!"...and I try to take that at face value...but having known her for ten years I can't help but notice when she's putting on a face - even if over the phone.
I will hold off on that letter - maybe I'll just keep doing what I've been doing over the last few months...writing a letter...reading it...then emailing it to myself and reading it again...only to think, phew, glad I didn't sent that one.
I last talked with a lawyer at the end of November...and decided from my conversation with him to keep things calm for a while. His advice, as someone who has dealt with people behaving like my W (with threats of having the husband arrested, etc), was to let her find a calm place - and when it seems like the tempest has passed and she's willing to talk about reconciliation or D - to go through mediation instead of court. In his experience, woman who say the things my wife has been saying often find a way to win favor in the court - and often end up calling the police in the months before going to court...just to prove their points of view...of course, this is all from one lawyer...so there are certainly other opinions out there - but I trusted him mostly because it seemed like he wasn't trying to make a buck of me at all - and was even encouraging me not to use a lawyer...for a moment I thought he was using a DBing technique on me (LOL) - not pursuing, letting me make my choices, letting me think I didn't need him...only to have me convince myself that using him would be best...
...as for our finances - those have been taken care of - she's taken over the payments for the car she took - I kept the car that was paid off - and we separated all credit cards. I gave her half of what was in the savings - and she has her own retirement account with her work - and I have my own as well...
Some of the best protection I have right now regarding our baby is that I pick him up every day from daycare and have him with me every Saturday - if I were the abusive person she claims I am, why would she allow our baby to be alone with me so much? It tells me that at least part of her knows that her characterization of me is a fabrication...or a projection...
"I know it seems like those words might mean, "I give up, we can't fix it," but that's exactly my wife's point of view - and that is what I would be validating with those words"
And you should not validate that point of view. you should not validate things that are not true.
truth: your wife is choosing to end your marriage
untruth: "there's nothing she can do to make it better".
validate truth. do not validate untruth. "validate", what IS actually "valid"!!!
I disagree with Scarred about validating only what is true. What we validate in DBing are feelings not facts. Feelings are never true or false, they are what they are.
That said, I agree with you. Validate what she feels. However, if you do not feel it, too, then you need not agree with it.
You can tell her you understand why she might feel that too much has happened to reconcile but that you do not share those feelings, or something like that. I think you were on the right path already.
In any event, you have decided to hold off on sending the letter. I agree, given your situation that waiting is for the best.
And you should not validate that point of view. you should not validate things that are not true.
truth: your wife is choosing to end your marriage
untruth: "there's nothing she can do to make it better".
validate truth. do not validate untruth. "validate", what IS actually "valid"!!!
I don't really even like the term "validation" as applied to relationships because the term "valid" does have a connotation of truth.
It is more helpful to me to think in terms of "feeling empathy" and "thought empathy", i.e. "I understand how you might be feeling and I care about your feelings" and, "I understand how you might see it that way." In other words, I see it more as understanding and acknowledging the other person's feelings and point of view.
Of course you can neither agree nor disagree with feelings, and even when people agree on the facts, they can have different points of view based on those facts.
I don't know if what I just said makes any sense. Validation can be tricky because you want to show understanding without agreement.
Beth and Dudess, You're both talking about the trickiest part of validation for me...and maybe for others as well...it took me some time before I understood that I could validate (i.e. empathize) without agreeing with everything my wife says...Though it doesn't happen much anymore - since we hardly talk - before she moved out I had gotten to the point of listening, repeating what she would say and then offering my point of view - not as a correction - but as a way of introducing some pieces of reality into her perspectives.
It gets tricky - because her pain does make her see me as an abusive man that is incapable of listening to her - even when I am hearing everything she says - and taking in her thoughts as best I can...but I think the problems arise because it's not just about me validating her words (I have the same problem with that word as you, Dudess, especially the implications of "truth."), but about accepting what for her is very real.
While I could sit that and tell her over and over that I am not an abusive husband until I am blue in the face - it would accomplish nothing - for one thing - she believes that's exactly what an abusive husband would do (and I think she's right) and beyond that, it would put me back on my failed course of trying to "fix" everything for her - by denying the reality of her perception - insofar as her pain and fears are very, very real to her.
I picked up another book at the library today - "How to improve your marriage without talking about it" - I've only read about 30 pages into it - but I have found some interesting insights in there...mostly about shame and inadequacy - and how much those feelings were in me and clouding my judgment as I pulled away from my W before she dropped the bomb...
I can see where a lot of the techniques may be more difficult in your situation, given your W's disordered thinking.
You got me thinking about the word "valid." In logic (the philosophy) to be valid means that an argument is sound - that it contains no fallacies and is provable. How can that ever apply to a feeling?
I guess we must extrapolate a bit. I think in the DB world what is meant by "valid" is really "acceptable" or "okay." As in, "W, I can understand how you might feel X and it is okay for you to feel X, there is nothing wrong with feeling X." The next step, if you do not feel X is to tell her "W, while I understand how you have come to feel X. I do not feel X."
I get that the problem for you lies in telling your W it is okay to feel X because, it may very well not be okay to feel X in your mind. But, the key is that she feels it in her mind. So, perhaps the trick is to appeal to her sense of logic. Ask her if she can see how, given the same set of facts, you might feel very differently about the same thing.
Not sure if that helps, or if it even makes sense. It has been a good twenty years since my last logic class, or any philosophy class for that matter, so I may be a bit rusty.
Hi Beth, "disordered thinking" - I like the way you put it...
I agree with you that validating in a DB sense is more about what is acceptable or okay - though the problem I've found here is that there really isn't much in the DB/DR books about how to validate an emotionally abusive spouse who has gone the full route of projecting everything on to you (and here I'm thinking of Refuse to Lose and his being blamed for the global credit crisis).
I have tried several different approaches to talking with my W - some work - some don't - one thing that fails no matter what is any and all talk about R - though I think that's true for just about anyone that comes to this site...When we were still talking I tried using the SET technique described in a book about borderline personality disorders - and that seemed to work - as least in the short term - though she still managed to pull pieces of the conversation and refashion them into something I had never said...(if she were a sculptor she would be able to turn a cow pie into one of Rodin's Port d'Enfer).
...but I digress...what I'm coming to remember (which is a twisted sort of sentence in its own right) is that I cannot do much to communicate with her at all...I can be kind to her - and not react to her anger - and just offer my friendship not try to impose my love on her in any way...and that's about it.
Tonight, when she came by to pick up S2, she did her usual thing of calling from the car instead of ringing the doorbell - but this time she actually came to the door to get S2 - which was unusual...I took the proximity as a chance to ask her if she had heard the recent reading of an excerpt from Paradise Lost on NPR (we're both fans of Milton) - and she said she hadn't heard it - but didn't snip in her usual way...so I said, "just let me know if you're interested, and I'll email you the link." It is an impressive podcast - a reading of the entire poem - I stayed up all night listening to it recently...well I didn't stay up to listen, I just couldn't sleep, and the words and images kept me company in a gentle way...
Hm...just got a call from a friend who is going through his own separation...my age, his wife has so very much in common with mine - but they have no kids...and he's reached a point where he just feels like her anger and and her affairs have become too toxic for him...when I hear him talk about his W, it's hard for me to find a reason to convince him to work on his marriage...even though here I sit...still considering the possibility of reconciliation...though also knowing that even if my wife were to call me tonight and ask to reconcile, I could only do so if she agreed to get some help...not in terms of MC - but in terms of dealing with her darkness.
I'm still seeing a T - and it helps me a lot - mostly just helping me keep things in perspective - and sometimes he even points out positives in my own words that I had missed...
I'm so happy to see how you are progressing. Try and look at this as a journey that you've got to conquer one step at a time. It is very long, so be patient, but also find a way EVERY day to fight the good fight for Carlos and his boys. Maybe put something on the mirror for you to study every morning as a reminder.
Also, Nut is 100% correct. You can write and write and write, but send NOTHING! Don't even write notes to yourself in the margins of a book. Not only can they come back against you in a custody hearing, they WILL! I'm living proof.
My words of openness, honesty, and accountability were thrown back at me and used against me. In the end, what did I get for being honest, upfront, open and taking responsiblity for my part in everything? Screwed sideways w/a lunchbox. It wasn't pretty.
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My wife is a beautiful person in so many ways - and I know that I will continue to love her no matter what happens - I just know that because she won't examine herself and the affects of her FOO on her that we just don't have much of a chance.
We married very similar, yet flawed women, my brother. This is my XW and my feelings as well. All people have flaws, but unless they are willing to face them, own them, and fix them, they will always be more than flaws...they will be the chains that hold them back from truly being happy, healthy, and free.
I'm not sure if either of our sitches will see the ladies we know ever find the strength or courage to break their chains. However, you said it best when worrying about W being w/her abusive dad for so long - "It isn't my problem."
As painful as it is, letting go of what we can't control and concentrating on what we can control is the only way to truly save ourselves.
she actually came to the door to get S2 - which was unusual...I took the proximity as a chance to ask her if she had heard the recent reading of an excerpt from Paradise Lost on NPR (we're both fans of Milton) - and she said she hadn't heard it - but didn't snip in her usual way...so I said, "just let me know if you're interested, and I'll email you the link."
Good work Carlos. It is progress that she came to the door. When I say that, I'm thinking more in terms of you being able to get divorced without nuclear explosions rather than reconciliation, but it is a good sign that she is calming down a bit.
I would think that mentioning something you have in common, (a love of Milton) is a great, subtle, way to remind her that you are friends.
Refuse to Lose is responsible for the global credit crisis?!?
Yup...I have it on good authority that Refuse to Lose is a very powerful dude with lots of tricks up his sleeves! Beware!
...back to reality...though that's not to say Rob isn't strong...I just don't think he's got THAT MUCH power (yet)...
First off - Rob, thank you for reminding me to be cautious. Sometimes I forget that I have to pull back on some parts of me - and that means doing 180s in a different sort of way. My tendency is to be open and straightforward - a friend of mine thinks I'm honest to a fault - but that just comes from having been raised in a family in which we were encouraged - no - told to lie instead of having my father face the reality of who were and what we were going through...in response to my childhood I developed this habit of speaking my mind no matter what - and while it's gotten my into trouble at times...it's not something I've regretted...now, however, with my W...I just can't speak my mind. I can't call her and say: "Hi, it's me, I just wanted to let you know that I know that you perceive me as abusive, but I also know that a lot of the stuff that you accuse me of happens to echo stuff you've told me about your childhood. I would love to fix our marriage, but I know that can't happen unless and if you decide to take care of your anger and the issues plaguing you from your childhood."
See....to me, that just sounds rational and direct and workable...but to my wife it sounds like me deflecting all responsibility for our problems onto her past - which isn't my point of view...since I know that I've done things that have exacerbated her pain - in that I've bitten at the anger bait - and have also allowed myself to become someone other than who I had envisioned myself becoming...Still, as RTL said, my wife's flaws, in so far as she doesn't address them, admit them or engage them have become her chains - and for a few years now those chains have held us both...and I know that I have to be free of them...I'm writing this now to remind myself of this point of view tomorrow - since I feel strong and have a semblance of clarity at the moment - though I know that I will be beset with sadness again in the next few days...leading up to the holidays...
Dudess - I appreciate your honesty in saying that you see her calming down in terms of divorce not reconciliation - since I don't really see reconciliation as a possibility without her finding a way to heal from her pain - or confront her own demons. I know - oh my goodness do I know - that I am a flawed man and that there are many ways in which I can improve myself - but I cannot let that awareness hide me from the reality that my W has some very, very serious issues to consider...and we can never have a healthy relationship (as divorced friends or as reconciled H/W) if she continues to refuse to look at herself.
I will send her the link to the Paradise Lost podcasts - maybe tomorrow night - and I'll just let her think of me what she needs to think...
Rob...have you noticed how many of the people here are teachers? I used to teach as well...and miss it terribly...I think a lot about going back to teaching again...
