any experience with this?

[rop]

Hi everyone, I don't know if anyone ha experience with this -
I am divorced - I have joint custody and my kids live with their mother, besides the weekend when they usually stay with me -
The last month I have been away for work and I learned from my daughter that my son(6) went to football game with OM - just the 2 of them. This freaked me out - I never met or talked to this guy, besides that those are activity that I care to do with my kids and I don't like what is happening - I talked about it to ex W I said I don't want this guy to hang around my kids without her - she said I am unreasonable and controlling - I tried to call OM, I left a couple of message to the answer machine, saying that it was a friendly call but there are few things I need to clarify with him - he didn't answers and said through ex W that it doesn't want to talk to me - but because I insist is going to meet me when I'll be back - but for now is not going to talk to me at phone.
Tomorrow I am going to contact a lawyer - something that I should have done long ago - and check with him my rights, but any experience form you guys is unbelievable welcome - I am very lonely in this - please help - any advise is welcome.

[still hopeful]

Hello rop,

Sorry to meet you here and sorry to hear about your challenges with your XW and her decisions. Some back ground on me. I also live in CA. My D was final in July '07. We have 2 children D8 and S3. We separated in Feb 2006, so it's been quite a while now.

I have had similar challenges with XW, stemming from her wonderful string of choices for new men in her life. She just finished with new BF (Flavor of the Month) #4. My challenge has been from day ONE that she believes that our children need to be introduced with each brand new FotM almost immediately.

I have 'spent time with' (I make it clear from the start that I am not in a space to DATE anyone) 3 women since XW and I split. All three of these women have met my children, but they are introduced as friends and are expected to behave like friends with me in front of my children (& their children). Too be quite honest, my children are rarely around any of these women by my choice. I spend enough time away from my children when they are with their mother to spend adult with whomever I choose.

I have certainly had your feelings crop up whenever the new FotM came into her life, but I have several good friends who remind me that she is an adult, she has joint custody with me of our children, and despite my not liking her choices, I DO NOT OWN her, I CANNOT control her behavior, and she is NOT doing anything ILLEGAL. Their patient, but firm advice allowed me to breathe deeply while keeping a close eye on the 'happenings' and listening closely to D8.

My suggestion is to check out your divorce decree and determine if there is any restriction on who your children may be with when she is AND is NOT present. Probably not, but it'll settle your mind, at least. Consult a lawyer if you wish, but the family court has a help desk/window staffed by people to answer your questions or direct you in the right direction to satisfy you mind.

QUESTIONS:
1. Is the problem THIS OM, or any OM?
2. Does something about this OM in particular disturb you?
3. Is XW developing a pattern with new FotMs?
4. Are you hoping to reconcile with XW?

The bottom line for me has been to keep myself safe and to NOT let her behavior lure ME into doing anything stupid so that I won't get myself in a situation where I would not be able to care for my children. And let me tell you, I have exercised superb restrain since we split in dealing with her, her male friends, and her FotMs.

Be a thorn in her side. Be stable. Be strong. Be indifferent towards her. Love your children and be with them when you are supposed to be with them. XW, her friends and family, and your children are watching EVERYTHING you do.

Be the main character, the leading man, in this brand new blockbuster, inspirational drama called, "rop Rises to the Occasion AND Takes Charge of His New Life!" Be all that you can be in this new role. Surprise everyone with your depth and range. Make yourself proud of YOU, your thoughtfulness and your decisions to act and sometimes NOT act in various situations, but always be mindful, alert and decisive, my friend. Good luck.

[rop]

Thank you very much SH -
My Ex W has having what she define a "stable" relation with this person, that is the same she left me for a year ago. I don't know and never met this person - and until this episode there was no reason to - but I don't know what she is saying to him about me and my relation with my kids - I don't know if he thinks my kids don't have a present father that care about them, or if he feels he needs to "cover" a void. I need him to know that there are things, like going to the game, that "I" want to do with my kids, because this are memories I care they build with me, and not with him. I want him to know that when he is with my kids he is responsible not only toward my ex W but also toward me, I am not a ghost. My ex W doesn't understand my concerns and thinks I am neurotic - and probably other people think the same.
Yes I am also jealous, and afraid my kids my end up loving this person more then they love me - I know this is not reasonable a feeling, and I try to fight it.
In this year I didn't date anyone, I have been busy rebuilding my professional life, besides my spirit - I have been wishing all along my ex W reconsidered her decisions, but not much luck there, our relation had good friendly moments, some few moments where there was an hint she was reconsidering, and few horrible fights like the one we are having now, where I am digging myself a hole because she is immediately arguing I am over controlling, but I don't think I am, and I have never been - she always did what she wanted without ever consulting with me, while
I have always involved her.
I tried to be the inspirational super Rop. Sometime I succeed many time I fail, I am human, I have miseries and jealousies, but I don't think I am worse or better than anyone on this planet. Yes "they" are watching me - and I am watching "them". My kids are very small and vulnerable, I don't want that they have the wrong message about what a father is, specially that no one can, just because has a relation with their mother, claim any rights about them. I raised my kids, I saw them born, they are my life, this guy is nobody, and a perfect stranger to me, and I want him to back off from my kids - is that weird?
I don't know if the law protects me and my kids, in anyway about this - I know it should - I don't want to do anything stupid or illegal this is why I am so eagerly asking you guys if you have experience on this.

Here are my answers to your questions:
QUESTIONS:
1. Is the problem THIS OM, or any OM?
//The problem is that I don't know this person at all and I don't know his motivations. That when is about my kids is not just my ex W has a saying about my kids but also me - is not me OR her, but me AND her. I definitely would have a problem with EVERY OM around my kids by themselves - I am ok if my Ex W is there with them.

2. Does something about this OM in particular disturb you?
Well - he went with a married woman with two small kids, we definitely don't share the same moral values - but my main concern is that I don't know this person at all. Just because my Ex likes him doesn't mean is a person I want around my kids.

3. Is XW developing a pattern with new FotMs?
No - she has been with this guy since.

4. Are you hoping to reconcile with XW?
I hope I could rebuild my family together, I am still very upset with my ex, and it wouldn't be an easy task - but for sure OM is a big obstacle.

Thank you very much

[still hopeful]

Hi rop,

I have a lot to respond to your post. I will respond tonight, my friend.

[still hopeful]

Hello again, rop.

I will break down my response to you so that I can be sure to hit all the points with you that I want to and to be sure it makes sense and is not too convoluted.

My D process and current status has been long and windy. I look back at all that we have been through as individuals and as a couple and it makes me hurt and dizzy. I did not know her well enough to marry her or have children with her, but here we are. It pierces my heart that our broken marriage means a broken home for our perfect children.

Despite everything, and despite the loving talks and comments from my friends, family and loved ones, I still DO hold out hope for a reconciliation, no matter how unlikely my rational self tells me that that pipe dream is.

I do still love her. Even tough our M ended, I hold onto the hope that XW will grow and mature from who she has been to be the person who I believe she is able to be. My counselor told me that XW repeatedly SHOWED me WHO she is with her behavior and incessant lying.

A good friend that I met here helped me get through the worst of it, (and I know he is still on the board helping others) and he watched me change and grow. He told me that as long as I continue to learn, question and grow as a man(while she stays the same) that I will eventually simply outgrow her. Well, I have grown a great deal, and yet, I still hold on.... Go figure.

To me that means that 1) a haven't grown as much as I will and still need to grow and that 2) I still haven't reached a place in my life that allows me to let go. But every day, I work on going forward, focusing on my children and myself, trying to heal enough to let go because XW makes no show that she wants to sort us out, heal and go forward together. Enough about me and my story, but my story does play a LARGE role in what I think and how I respond.

ON TO YOU:
1. XW seems unstable to you, however, she is doing what SHE wants to do based on HER decisions and her single reality, and your thoughts on her behavior are being seen through YOUR lenses which are colored by:
a) what YOU want,
b) your passing judgment over her,
c) your unhealed hurts,
d) your off the charts anxiety and fears,
e) your anger,
f) your need to feel power and control over her (which you never had, according to you),
g) your jealousy of OM and what you imagine OM and XW have, and
h) your unforgiveness of her

2. SELF CONTROL- doing what you ought to do instead of what you want to do. Please, work on breathing deeply BEFORE you say or do anything when your emotions are running loose and your behavior AND MOUTH are about to go on 'autopilot.' I take a HUGE deep breath, smile gently and countdown from 5 in my mind to catch my thoughts and dissipate any demons inside of me that may have grabbed control of my mouth. The calmness and the smile drive my XW crazy and she gets pissed.

I just stay calm and respond when I have control of me. XW used to keep poking at me because invariably, she would get my REACTION and she would get her rush from an argument. Now I just stay calm and RESPOND. If she won't relent, I simply tell her that it's time for me to leave. I know, since it takes TWO people to fight, with my leaving, she will have to fight with herself. Then I just go. I am calm. If she chooses to me, she's till upset.

This will help you to keep from digging holes for yourself and then needing to apologize for saying or doing something as a REACTION.

3. Don't read anything into your interactions with XW, neither positive nor negative. I simply chalk them up to exactly what they are, either a nice interactions or a crappy one. What I have learned to stop doing is giving BS plus points for a positive interaction and feeling really crappy from a negative one. Either way, I allowed MY feelings to be affected by XW's mood and behavior, even when I KNEW I hadn't done anything to bring on her lousy behavior.

The harder one for me, believe it or not, was NOT reading anything into a positive interaction and falsely getting my hopes up, only to be crushed in the next interaction because of the BS I had allowed to loop between my ears. Don't do this. File your interactions under labels of either, 1)Hmmm, that was nice, or 2) Hmmm, that sucked. File it, close the drawer and go on about YOUR day. Recognize it put it away. Don't dwell on it.

4. I am happy to hear that you are working on YOU. Nice. If you don't have Michelle's books, you may want to get them and focus on staying solution-oriented for yourself and for your relationship with your XW. Whether she and you give it another go or not, you and your relationships will benefit from a better you.

Speaking of a better you. Are you working to improve yourself personally. Doing that type of work is your gift to you. Whatever you do to improve you, you get to keep and reap the benefits. Since you are similar to me in still being open to reconciling your M, you would benefit greatly from David Cunningham's email blog, which can be found at makingherhappydotcom. <--this address needs a leading WorldWideWeb and a 'period' to replace the dot. You can subscribe for the email at no cost and check it out. Fantastic relationship insight and direction to point you in the direction of eliminating any wussy behavioral qualities you may have and my still display towards the women in your life.

5. Are you working on your spirit? What is your religion?

6. Focus on your children. They are little bowls with lots of little holes in the bottom. Those little holes allow love to drain out and they need to be filled with love constantly because you don't want them to run out of love or feel like their 'love bowl' is running low. Develop more patience with them than you ever thought you could possess. Remember, you are their father, NOT their friend. Love them, nurture them, play with them, keep them safe, teach them, direct them, correct them. They will have lots of friends in their lives; they'll only have ONE dad. YOU! This is a crappy time for them. Being part of a broken family sucks for them. Make the best for them of their less than ideal situation. Lots of love will do the most for them to heal themselves.

RESPONSES to MY QUESTIONS TO YOU:
1. It not be your right to know WHO the OM is. If he has 'issues' like my XW's DH#3 (<--my affectionate moniker for XW's various FotMs), sometimes they are truly criminals. It's your right to know that, but even then, you'll have to seek counsel as to your rights about various people with 'pasts' being around your children or with them when your XW is not present. Remember, some one's past does not necessarily mean that's who they are today.

Luckily, XW's DH#3 didn't stay in the picture too long. Long enough though, for XW to call me up to get this DH out of her home (XW moved him in after he was released from jail) so she and our children could go home. This happened on 4 or 5 occasions, the last being right after I told her, "You keep calling me to rescue you, but clearly you don't want to be rescued. Stop calling me." The next day, she called the sheriff's office for the second time on DH#3 after he had been holding her and my son captive in her home.

After this episode, DH#3 went to court, then jail (he was already on probation), and XW finally filed a restraining order against him because the same deputy that was on the first call for DH#3 was on the second call and he made it clear he was disgusted with her because she was still involved with this troublemaker and that our children were in peril. Because of the two calls to the sheriff's department for domestic violence while the children were home, reports were filed to CPS for the protection of our children. CPS opened a file. NOT a good thing when the file has your name on it. Shortly after that, XW said she was afraid to live at home with the children and moved in with me for two months.

Here's the real stupid part. XW asked me to move back to her home with her and the children (separate BR, of course) so that they would be home and feel safe. I had a sneaking suspicion that what ended up happening was going to happen, but I did it any anyway because I was hopeful it would be positive for reconciling my M and I wanted to be under the same roof as my children EVERY day again. After being there 2 months, XW started acting horribly towards me. She told me she wanted me to move out. Shortly thereafter, she relented and apologized. She behaved a little better for about a month and then the CPS active file was closed and her behavior started in worse than ever, with her telling me I needed to move out again. As my friend told me, "As soon as you doesn't have a way to use you, she's shut you out again. No warning." Sadly, he was right.

I stayed on for 2 months while finding a different place for myself (mind you, I gave up my place at HER request) and her behavior deteriorated so badly that my children had to witness their mother yelling and swearing at their father. I kept my cool, stayed strong and did NOT react. Horrible for my children to witness that treatment of their father, though.

That whole long-winded explanation was simply an illustration of what happened to me when a person who had 'issues' already when XW started dating him and it turned out that his past 'issues' proved to be present issues. Knowing ahead of time WHO DH#3 really was didn't change anything in this situation, and luckily it resolved itself because DH#3 is a tiger who hasn't been able to change his stripes.

It's also my example of reading too much into MY wants of reconciling and my ignoring her behavior, plus seeing only what I WANT to see instead of reality. This is certainly an example of needing to disengage from her to avoid emotional harm. I care for her, but have done so at my expense. I'm working to resolve my co-dependence issues with her. Knowing a problem exists is half the problem. It can be dealt with if it's known.

2. Don't sit in judgment of OM's morals. Simply watch and be discerning. Listen to your children. Watch for behavior changes. It's most likely not your call to make about OM being around your children. Your XW deems him fit to be around your children. You'll most likely need a reason that you deem him unfit. Go over your paperwork. Consult a lawyer. Call the family courts with your concerns and see if someone at the 'public help' desk can direct you to help or advise you on you question.

3. XW left you for OM, right? No pattern of being unstable staying with OM only so far. Sucks for your mental state but, she could be like my XW, having just ended her fourth 'serious' relationship. Not fun to watch, but I have taken to watching from the sidelines. As a matter of fact, her relationship with DH#4 just ended. Prior to it ending, she asked me some questions about him.

I told her, "Look, you haven't asked me what I've thought of him (I know him) and I haven't offered you any unsolicited thoughts. Let's just keep it that way. (did NOT want to make an 'US' of them against me) I know you and I know him. I am completely confident that you will figure out exactly WHO he is and what he is like. You have been dating him for two months and based on your track record, this relationship will run its course in less than two months."

XW: Why do you say that?

Me: Track record. What I've learned of you. Watching you.

XW: That's horrible:

Me: Yeah, but true. You'll see.

End of conversation. Relationship ended within ten days. =) I don't want her (or him, for that matter) to hurt. It's just that I have had the most uncanny ability to see and predict her behavior and her relationships with near perfect accuracy. Too bad reconciling my R with her to be the one I still long for hasn't worked with this type of accuracy for a winning game plan.

The worst part of her parade of DHs is that my children keep watching her parade from the curb, and I am certain it is confusing to them. I have told XW that she is their role model for a mom, for a woman, for a girlfriend, and for being a woman in a relationship. I tell her, they are watching you. Are you happy with the role model you are showing them in word and in deed? She doesn't answer, but I know she takes what I say to heart. Sadly, in many respects I am a father figure to her and a moral compass.

4. Yes, rebuilding your family will not be an easy task. First and foremost, you need to forgive her. You need to release that huge load of upset that your lug everything and lighten your load. Your upset and it oozes out of your pores in every interaction with XW. She sees it in your eyes, in your tone, in your volume, in your interactions with your children and others, in everything....

Forgiving does NOT mean forgetting. It simply means that you give yourself permission to stop carrying around your anger, upset, disappointment, fear, judgment, anxiety, mind reading (which is never positive), self-centeredness, self-absorption, self-pity, selfishness, feelings of entitlement and judgment. You will always remember this relationship, this time, and not just because of your children. You will remember because you WILL learn from all of this and come out the other side a better, stronger, smarter man.

The last principle of forgiveness is that you release YOUR right to bring up all of your D to her. You may certainly talk about it with her, but you lay down this divorce club and work to never beat her up with it again, despite the hurt that you still fee.

[rop]

wow, SH - you have an intense sitc - I understand what you are going through. Sometime life is very demanding. I had too, people telling me that my Ex "bewitched" me, and insisting with her means only more suffering, while I deserve a person at my side capable to make me happy. I do partially agree with them, there are people, that for different reasons, are able to ruin the life of the people who loves them. My ex W is probably one of them. She admitted candidly once that she cheated all the man she had a relation with.... she claimed she changed with me. If wasn't for my kids I would not consider to go back with her. But I think I owe them a family, or at least try whatever I can to keep our family united. It is a question of priorities, my family is my first one.
Thank you very much for being here, it means a lot to me.

[still hopeful]

Hello rop,

While you are in a holding pattern with your life, do things to improve yourself for you and for your children. In the event that your XW decides that she has made a mistake, you will have been working on your part of the equation of improving you so that a NEW YOU would being giving the relationship a go rather than the you that gave a go the first time.

Understand that XW having a change of heart is a long shot, and that is why investing in yourself is your gift to YOU not to HER. Do your best to focus on the only person that you have a likely chance of changing, you. Use your local library to get some books on man issues. I generally use amazon.com to purchase my books, but also to read the reviews of books that have come to my attention. It's useful and checking them out at the library is much less expensive than purchasing even the most inexpensive books.

I hope you and your children are well. Strengthen your relationship with them. Cherish those relationships. Those won't end in divorce. My best to you. Keep us posted on your comings and goings. My good story for the pas couple of days is that my 3 year old son is almost complete toilet trained. His accomplishment makes me so happy for him. His independence grows.

Bye.