More of the same...

[Stillhope]

Nothing.

I keep invading Cinco's threads so I'll vent elsewhere/here. Wife and I are struggling. We are in MC together. I am a night owl and tend to go to bed late. This morning she says "you need to come up earlier" Hint hint. I say I didn't think you wanted to do that anymore. (It's been more than a month and we've done it maybe 5 times in the last six months). She says "yes I do !" with a little enthusiasm. So tonight I go up before 9. She's awake watching TV. I get in the shower and am out in 10 minutes. She's "asleep" - not totally but making it clear IMO she's is avoiding any activity. I get in bed and she is actively trying to go to sleep. I decide to get up since I went up there to be with her and it is apparent it is now false hope. She asks what I'm doing and I ask her if she's going to sleep. Yes. I say OK. I say I'm going downstairs. She asks if I'm mad. No. Kind of tho really. It's such a drag and now I've come to expect it.

Trying to decide why I'm trying to stay married to her. I left her flowers this morning. She says I saw the nice roses - no thanks or anything like that - just she saw them - the third time in a row this was the reaction although one time she said nothing.

I'm having a hard time.... she's not taking care of herself physically and I'm starting to feel as she apparently doesn't want me, why am I trying with her ? She isn't all that shapely or as hot anymore - and she's cold sexually - why am I bothering to try ? I hate thinking like that. I've reduced trying dramatically and I don't think she's hardly noticed.

Her reaction to the SSM concept ? LOL - and discarding of the idea.

[Stillhope]

I did a little thinking. I think my relationship may be over. I'm disapointed but OK with it. This morning she was same as normal lately - pleasant - and seemingly fine with how our housemate relationship is. I'm going to take some time off working on our relationship and just live the regular daily routine. We've developed into such a distant personal relationship IMO that nothing will be missed or noticed. I'm eating myself up self pressuring about us, sex, etc... and think I need to give myself as well as her a break. No point trying if one of the partners is fine with things as they are and is ignoring the other spouses feelings or marital hopes/needs.

[Bagheera]

Greetings, SH;

I replied to your thread over in the For Newcomers forum, but agree with your shift over to the SSM forum. In your old thread, however, you wrote up your extensive background, so I wanted to link it for anyone else wishing to respond to you here. My initial thoughts are (and repeates what I posted in Newcomers):

About your wife, you said: "She is smart - two masters degrees. Ex Army. Strong. I like that about her. She got/has a pretty good job with the FBI."

I too, find 'strong' women attractive, but there is one thing that you must always keep in mind with them: most women are romantically and sexually attracted to a man who is STRONGER than they are. Not someone who is a self-centered jerk or a domineering bully --> that's NOT what I mean <-- but someone who is confident, has strength of character, is decisive and can lead the relationship, and who will stand up to her, when necessary. As a military veteran and someone who is currently with the FBI, your wife, in particular, has had to hold her own in fields which contain large percentages of strong, dominant personalities, and these are the guys against whom you will be unconsciously compared. My feeling is, in order for her to feel sexaully attracted to you again, you are going to have to show her that you match or exceed her own confidence, decisiveness, and strength of character.

By failing to stand up to your mother/family at a very crucial time -- when you should have been showing maximum solidarity with your new wife -- you proved yourself to be weak, rather than strong. By permitting yourself to be constantly 'henpecked' now, you continue to display that weakness. By continuing to try to be a "Nice Guy," trying to please everyone and make them happy -- while not standing up for yourself and your own happiness -- you continue to make yourself unattractive to her. On an unconscious level, she keeps 'testing' you, and you keep failing that test. My advice:

(1) Continue your reading, and continue to look for and meet her needs in the relationship: show your love for her in the language that SHE best understands it.

(2) Continue to listen to and try to understand her complaints and criticisms. Acknowledge them and even repeat them back to her -- without being defensive or argumentative. Just accept her point of view (POV) as such, and make sure she understands that you accept it.

BUT, but, but:

(3) Stand up for yourself (WITHOUT being angry, critical, or defensive) and tell her your point of view: quietly, calmly, confidently. If she starts to raise her voice or become too demeaning, tell her to stop or you will leave the room, and if she continues anyway, disengage from the conversation. DO NOT let her draw you into a shouting match or battle-of-criticisms. Listen to her POV, let her know that you've heard and understood her, state your POV (calmly), and let it go. Address her concerns and accept her influence/suggestions when you can, but firmly stand your ground when you can't. Admit and take responsibility for your mistakes, when you make them, but then learn from them and move forward. Stay 'above the fray' as much as possible, keep your cool and your confidence, and stand strong.

(4) Start living your own life, for YOURSELF. Every one of us here on these boards has a tendency to make our ->spouse<- the center of our universe and focus so much on them that we lose ourselves, but this is very unhealthy and unattractive to our spouse. Set up a GAL process and stick with it -- start doing things for YOU, for your own benefit and pleasure. The more you do, the better and more confident you will feel, and the more appealing you will be to your wife.

Yours is not an uncommon problem around these boards, but it is one that will requires several *months* of work to make a dent in. Life-changes take time and constant persistence to fulfill, BUT, it can be done.

Best regards,

Bagheera

[Stillhope]

Thanks.

I think in some measure your right. I think I'm a pretty strong person and one of the things that got my marriage into the state it is, is that per her I am not supportive enough of her. I let lots of things roll off my back - she doesn't. She delves into the meaning of them and why and has repeatedly criticized me that I don't. I'm "avoiding the issue or denying it's a problem". I don't think I am - but she does and is sure of it. She seems to want me to react and feel about things like her as apposed to how I do it naturally.

Neither of our lives revolve around each other and never has. I did think we were partners but over the last few years we aren't so much anymore. Now we mostly have our own lives but live in the same house. I don't think there is a lot of GAL-ing that I can do more than already exists. What I need to somehow do is regain her trust. She has told me straight out she doesn't trust me in several life areas many times - including taking care of my own kids which I did before I met her and don't need her for at all so am insulted by. As things feel now, it seems she has come to the conclusion that she won't trust me in those areas again so has closed the door on giving me a chance to regain any trust. I will continue to aplogize and admit my mistakes as I have done the last several years. Hasn't made a difference though so far. If I do the opposite and stop trying that she will interpret it as I don't care that I "hurt" her emotionally any more and throw in the towel. She has stated several times in the last year that she is doing that. So "standing firm" I'm not sure is a good way to go. I've done that maybe too much. I will think on it though....

I do want to stay with her - but the stress of our relationship is crushing us both I think and I also think neither of us like it or will accept it to continue. We both know we don't need each other and will be fine apart. The issue right now is I think both of us are regularly thinking apart would be better.

[Cinco]

Stillhope - You read my mind. I was about to suggest that you start a thread here in SSM. I 'm glad to see that you started one all by yourself.

This morning she says "you need to come up earlier" Hint hint.

This is key, my wife and I got into that avoidance habit of not going to bed at the same time. If one or the other of us was already asleep then I wouldn't have to deal with being rejected once again and she wouldn't have to deal with turning me down over and over. The problem is, if you avoid one another, how will anything ever happen?

So what do I do now? When I see she is going to bed, I go to bed too. If I want to go to bed a little earlier, I ask nicely, "Why don't you come to bed now sweetheart?" Does something exciting happen every time we lay down together? No. It does maximize the chances of something happening though. It also gives us a chance for just a caress or a goodnight kiss or to say something nice that can be whispered in her ear. Sometimes I get a back rub and sometimes I give her one. You get the idea.

All of these things bring us closer together. It all starts with making it important for bedtime to be something that you two do together. No expectations, just something that feels nice. Your wife told you this is something that she wants... now start doing it. Maybe she is just missing those simple intimate things that can be done while laying there about to go to sleep. No pressure just simple affection.

I have a nice report about last night I'll post over on my thread. It happened because I went to bed when she went to bed, I'm really glad that I did too.

Cinco

[Bagheera]

What I need to somehow do is regain her trust. She has told me straight out she doesn't trust me in several life areas many times.....As things feel now, it seems she has come to the conclusion that she won't trust me in those areas again so has closed the door on giving me a chance to regain any trust.

She sounds like she's feeling overworked, overwhelmed, and unsupported, and has reacted in somewhat typical female fashion: first, you get criticized for not providing her with enough support and help, and then when you do, that support and help isn't good enough -- isn't up to 'her' standards. She doesn't "trust" you with it....

So JUST DO IT, ANYWAY.

Pick some areas that she says you ignore or don't support her on, and start taking care of them. And when she comes around to look over you shoulder and tell you how you're doing it wrong, politely thank her for her input, take it into consideration, but do the job in your own fashion -- what suits you that she can learn to live with. You'll have to be very STUBBORN about this: if she wants your help and support, she's going to have to learn how to accept it in the manner in which you can give it. TELL HER THIS.

This is a common cycle. The woman complains that her man isn't helping her with ________ (say, doing the laundry). When he does try to help, she stands around over his shoulder, telling him how to do it or what he's doing wrong. After a few times, he gets tired of her constantly playing quality control inspector and gives it up....after which she's back to complaining about having no support with ________. They both lose.

I personally don't do the laundry, clean the kitchen, mop the floors, or get the kids ready for bed in exactly the same way that my wife does; in fact, I rarely meet or exceed her very particular and exacting standards about such things. HOWEVER, because she wants my support and help in these areas (and many others), she's learned how to accept my help in the way that I can give it and bite her tongue with regard to quality control. We both win here, and compromise.

Two books I'll recommend to you, SH: John Gray's classic Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and the newer When Mars and Venus Collide. Have your wife read them too, since it sounds like she's very stuck in her own POV, and expects you to be like her rather than the man that you actually are. Recognizing and working within the often profound differences between the sexes -- physical, mental (how we think and process), and emotional (how we react and respond) -- is a HUGE part of making a marriage work successfully, and these books were absolute eye-openers for my wife and myself.

Good luck,

-- B.

[Stillhope]

As I read more and get feedback I realize how "unconventional" - for lack of a better word - our marriage is and always has been. Things like helping around the house etc.. has never been an issue and I'm pretty sure isn't. I've asked over the years here and there if there was anything she wanted me to do or help with. The answer has always been no. Reason being, we are both independant people and take care of ourselves and our kids. We did it on our own for years before we met and there was never an expectation that would change. We keep our finances totally seperate and always have. The only thing financially that we are connected together on is the house title and mortgage which both our names is on and we split 50/50. We have never fought about money. Really - ever. My wife is very non domestic and in fact domestic stuff is more important to me than it is her. I don't ask or expect her to although I have complained quite a few times our house is such a mess so much. I have given up on that as it isn't important to her and my wants aren't important enough to try to get kids to clean up after themselves. She told me she isn't going to do anything about it so I should relax and give up/forget about it and I have done my best to do so. She does her own laundry, I do mine and my kids and the house items. She doesn't like to shop and I do (I actually do it for a living) so I do 90% of it - food and all house items. She buys most of her kids needs and I do mine. I'm a deal hunter but not excessively so and she has never complained or expressed any issue with how/what I buy. It's actually the reverse - she tells me I do a good job with it and she likes that she doesn't need to do it. I monitor the food/drinks stocks and we have what we/the kids need 95% or more of the time. She cooks or makes sure there is food available for the kids during the week and I do weekends. Lots of the house chores are done by the kids as earning their allowance and with 5 kids most of the regular stuff like dishes daily, taking garbage out, and washing floors once a week is covered. I do the man type stuff - the yard, cars, and house repairs although she occasionally does some house repair/improvement stuff also. I have zero issue with most all of our arrangement/life.

The big issue is us getting over the emotional damage that I think we both have. We've had too many nasty arguments the last year or so with little or no resolution. Lots of things now seem to be off limits to talk about to the point it seems like there isn't much for us to talk about. Our once pretty regular sex life has dwindled to about once a month on average and very strained and restricted activity wise. I have bitter feelings about it and IMO she doesn't seem to care one way or the other. Regular living / house / job / money type stuff isn't much of a problem.

I guess as I write this, it makes me realize all in all things could be a lot worse. But also the distance between us now is pretty significant.

[Delil@h]

But also the distance between us now is pretty significant.

And this is what is killing your M~
That empty space ... it feels ugly. There are no words to describe it.
I am sorry you find yourself in that space. I used to live there and it is a lonely place indeed. You can be in the same bed laying together and yet neither of you feels any connection and it is as if you are sleeping alone and it actually feels worse than that, cause your Spouse is right there just and arms length away. OUCH~
Anything is posible... dont forget that.
I am having a hard time understanding your sitch.... but one thing is certain you both have a lot of pain and resentment.
You need to work thru it and heal for this to have any movement.
You say she wont work on it?
Then you must and you can ..... the only person you can control is you.
All my best and have strength ... this will be ONE of the most difficult and rewarding things you ever do.
{ BTDT }
~Ava

[Delil@h]

The Four Agreements® BY DON MIGUEL RUIZ

1. Be Impeccable With Your Word
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

2. Don't Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

3. Don't Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.

This is from a book I highly recommend. It is a short read... those 4 things seem so simple and easy. Try it for a week, it is harder than you think... when resenment lives in your heart it taints every interaction with your Wife and others too.
I have been at this for over 2 years and My H is the Man I always dreamed of and I love him now more than ever { I thought my heart would never recoverf from the pain }
The one thing I can tell you that is absolutely necessary is for you to let go of the control , be your absolute best. Really take a hard look at yourself and change all th ugliness about you. I had to look very hard and even though some ( most ) of my anger resentment etc was warranted? It was gettng me nowhere. Compassion for yourself and your spouse will also help you to grow.
Find your absolute best and treat your spouse that way too.... it works.
It will take time but it works....
You cant give up when all seems for not .... baby steps and one day you will reach your Goal.
Dont get impatient cause it seems like turtles move faster.... and read and re ~ read Michelles books... they work!
All my best...
~Ava

[Bagheera]

Good morning SH,

Like Ava, I'm a bit confused about your situation because you've continued to speak in generalities, and not give specifics about what her issues are with you. I've tried a couple of stabs in the dark, and have missed both times. You wrote:

I am trying to read and understand the "I need to" do this, do that to make my spouse happy, comforted, important, loved, etc... I feel like I AM doing those things - but getting no where. Almost every conversation turns into what is wrong - what I did wrong, why I'm at fault. EVERYTHING is my fault. Any attempt to say/do better is met with "but - this and this and you said/did this". I this and I that.

What is she complaining about? What are the issues you are both grappling with?

I think in some measure your right. I think I'm a pretty strong person and one of the things that got my marriage into the state it is, is that per her I am not supportive enough of her. I let lots of things roll off my back - she doesn't. She delves into the meaning of them and why and has repeatedly criticized me that I don't. I'm "avoiding the issue or denying it's a problem". I don't think I am - but she does and is sure of it. She seems to want me to react and feel about things like her as apposed to how I do it naturally.

In what areas does she feel like you are not supporting her?

What issues are you supposedly avoiding?

She has told me straight out she doesn't trust me in several life areas many times - including taking care of my own kids which I did before I met her and don't need her for at all so am insulted by. As things feel now, it seems she has come to the conclusion that she won't trust me in those areas again so has closed the door on giving me a chance to regain any trust.

In what areas of your life does she no longer trust you?

The only thing that you've given some detail on is a honeymoon incident where you failed to stand by your wife in the face of your mother/family (at least, as far as I understand it). This is a lesson that most people in a new marriage have to learn: you stick by your spouse and keep your parents out of the relationship. Mothers, in particular, seem to have a hard time stopping themselves from either continuing to boss their child around, or worse, attacking their "replacement" -- the new spouse. And sometimes, you have to be pretty harsh with your own parents to get the point across to them to stay out and not interfere: that your spouse comes first to you now.

Is this still an issue for you?

I'm perplexed, and think that I ought to just be quiet until you tell us more about what's actually going on.


-- B.