I've actually just adapted the following plan from one of my earliest posts which you've probably already read.
(1) Your wife currently has little respect and therefore attraction towards you as a man. Over the years you have been far too "nice" - as in weak and placating. That is something you are going to have to remedy as a priority. Find and read no more mr nice guy. You'll realize several things: you need to stop being "nice"; you need to become an "integrated male" i.e. more masculine. Also, if your wife is ultimately unwilling to work with you on a passionate and loving relationship, you may even have to end your marriage. However, there's no reason yet to suppose that she would not be motivated to change her own attitude and behaviours, if she sees that you have have made lasting changes yourself.
(2) When my own marriage was in dire straits, I found it actually very instructive to step back and contemplate how I would go about life if my marriage was already over. I realised that my life would go on. No matter how distraught and depressed I might be. If not for my sake, then for our child's. There would be living arrangements to sort out, property to be sold and bought, contact agreements to make regarding our child, and if this couldn't be agreed amicably, this would all have to be decided by a court. It would all be very stressful and expensive and time-consuming. Very. And then what? Perhaps after the 6 months or a year that this all took, I would at last have some breathing space - time for myself and to plan my future. I would inevitably start thinking about my career - which I'd neglected because I was so depressed about my marriage. I would want to do other things that I'd not been able to do before - sport, pastimes, travel. I would also start thinking about dating again, and of starting another relationship. But this time I'd want to get it right. I'd want to be the very best man I could be, in order to recognise and attract and keep a healthy attractive woman. This whole train of thinking put my marriage in a proper perspective.
(3) With that new sense of reality and perspective I then started working on myself and my future as if I were already divorced. In other words, I devoted myself to a 12-month plan of improving every significant aspect of my life. I suggest that you do the same:
(a) Focus on your career - stop thinking of it as something you are just doing to earn money for your wife and children. Start looking at it as an expression of your true self - something that allows you to come alive and show the world what you're really made of. Work hard, push ahead, and don't coast. If what you're currently doing is not what you want - change jobs. If you're not already, get on top of the family finances - be aware of what's coming in, what's going out, that you're getting the best deals on everything.
(b) Get yourself in top physical shape. Start going to the gym regularly, lose the excess weight, become physically stronger. It will really help your self-esteem and of course your work.
(c) In addition, start spending some time with male friends. Preferably, strong successful men with happy marriages. If you don't have such friends, start making them, either from work or the gym, or the fathers of your children's friends at school. Meet up once a week to play sport or have a drink. Don't spill your guts to them about how awful your marriage is - just learn to relax in their company and have a laugh about other things. You will over time absorb some of their male energy and confidence.
(d) Pick one more thing - an interest, pastime or hobby - to pursue. Something that's close to your heart or that you've dreamed about, that you would definitely want to try if you were no longer with your wife.
(e) Start doing all these things. Not for your wife (or even your children), but for you. Only you. Mentally sever yourself from the expectation that your wife is at some point going to turn around and thank you for any of this. Whatever happens in your life, whether you stay with your wife or not, its your destiny to be the very best version of yourself that you can be. Have a good long hard think about what that best version would look, think, sound and act like. Bringing out that best version - day in, day out, no matter what the outside world throws at you - should always be your life's quest, its spritual content. That's your sole responsibility but also your great freedom. It means doing these things for yourself, with no expectation of any thanks or appreciation or indeed any response at all, from your wife or anyone else for that matter.
(f) Here's where it will get interesting. If you stick to your programme, after some weeks you'll start noticing changes in yourself. You'll feel mentally sharper, stronger, more emotionally stable and much more at ease with yourself. You will start to feel and look and act like the man you were always supposed to be. People will definitely notice. Your wife will notice too. I'm telling you so that you are not surprised when people notice. They will. But do not do these things for that reason. And do not stop doing them if they don't.
(4) Your children. You love them a great deal and they are your responsibility to feed, clothe and bring up as strong and decent young men. Their greatest chance of all that is for you to be mentally and physically (and economically) the best that you can be. Again, you do these things for you, but that helps them as well. Given your own very difficult childhood, I think you'll realise how important this question is? What kind of father do you want them to see? I would suggest one who is strong, heroic, relentlessly optimistic and loving. So make efficient use of your time to ensure you are able to do for yourself the things I've suggested above. By fulfilling yourself you will enjoy the time you spend with them all the more.
(5) Sex. At long last I get to sex. Sex is fun and exciting and exhilarating. Except when it isn't. Sex can be intense and emotional and intimate. Except when it isn't. Sex can really make a man feel he's a man. Except when it doesn't. In other words, sex is like any other activity - it can be good or bad, depending on the situation. Don't get me wrong, I like sex as much as the next man (probably more) but you will never have a truly satisfying sex life unless you can get the whole thing into perspective. Sex is a celebration of your masculinity, not an ingredient. Sex is a desire, not a need. You do not need sex, from your wife or any other woman, in order to be a man. If you were marooned on a desert island with no female company for years, you would be no less of a man. Make that one of your new core beliefs. Believe it and act it.
(6) Finally, your wife. The sex issue can wait a while longer until you have started making the other changes to yourself. But your interactions with her are going to have to significantly change. Start having and expressing your own opinions without fear or favour. Do not do things for her unless (i) you objectively should (ii) you genuinely want to (i.e. not because you want to get in her good books). Start learning to say "No" to the rest of her requests. Start listening to her calmly and attentively, without frantically trying to "fix" whatever problem you think she has. Think of yourself as the rock against which the sea of her emotions needs to smash - you don't crumble!
(7) I appreciate that all the above seems like a helluva lot of hard work. So it is. But you've probably worked hard all your life. And if you completely ignore this advice, you will no doubt continue to work hard for the rest of your life. One way or another, life will always be hard work. The key difference is that you have the choice of working hard on and for yourself. As a former fearful/nice guy myself, and who has been doing all of these things for about 2 years now, I can absolutely assure you that there is nothing more satisfying. That does not however mean I've become a selfish and insensitive macho jerk. It means I have a sense of masculine strength and self-esteem that is completely independent of my wife, my marriage and sex. Because of that, I am able to love her in a far healthier way, I am better able to meet her emotional needs, and the dynamics of my marriage have considerably improved. And I'm still learning.
So that's the "man up" stuff from me. Make a start on it and stick with it.
You will soon get a lot more advice from the other posters on the marriage itself.
Good luck!
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
To respond to some of your points, Strong&Alive - and I do appreciate all of your advice and feedback:
"When my own marriage was in dire straits, I found it actually very instructive to step back and contemplate how I would go about life if my marriage was already over."
Honestly, I haven't put much thought into this. My intention is to remain married to my spouse, for life, because I take my marriage vows as sacrosant and indissoluable. But if I did lose my wife, for whatever reason, I would probably give up on women, entirely. Honestly, I have practically had it with women - with the manipulation, exploitation, humiliation, etc.
If I had to start all over again, I would probably just become a celebate, committed single. I would support my 2 children in whatever way I can. One is age 17 and the other 15, so they are not far off from adulthood. I would probably work my job, which I despise, until they were adults. Then I would probably start from scratch.
(p.s., I positively detest the job I work today. I mean, I really, really hate it. I do it to pick up a paycheck, in order to keep my wife in the extravagant lifestyle that she enjoys. I have given up several career opportunities at my wife's insistence. She wants a steady source of income, so she can spend all the money she wants.)
Some of your other points:
"In addition, start spending some time with male friends."
I already do this, although none of them know about the marital issues I am having.
"Pick one more thing - an interest, pastime or hobby - to pursue."
Already there. In fact, this is the one outlet that I have used to maintain my sanity through this situation. In fact, I have won awards for my volunteer work with my children's school district. (When my wife found out about my award, she commented "I wish you would volunteer more around the house, and do more chores." Obviously, she wasn't impressed. She is only really impressed when I make her more money, or help her do less work.)
"Your children. What kind of father do you want them to see?
My children are teenagers, and like most teenagers, they want absolutely nothing to do with their parents. I can understand and accept that. They want to be out on their own, with their friends, and set up their own identities. They both have turned out to be very good kids, and for that, I am very thankful.
I have tried to do this arrangement, while setting a solid example and role model for them. I tried to show them what I thought a father should be - loving, supporting, selfless, commited and completely faithful. These were the ideals that I tried to exemplify. This is what I didn't get from my father, who was a total degenerate. I tried to be the exact reverse of my father (see my description above.)
I realize now I may have gone too far. My children pretty much regard me as a joke. They show the same lack of respect for me that my wife does. At first, I took this to be normal teenage rebellion. Maybe it is really a symptom of my own lack of stregnth. Perhaps they disrespect me for the same reasons that my wife does. Maybe my personality problems run even deeper, and are having even more consequences than I thought.
Honestly, I haven't put much thought into this. My intention is to remain married to my spouse, for life, because I take my marriage vows as sacrosant and indissoluable. But if I did lose my wife, for whatever reason, I would probably give up on women, entirely. Honestly, I have practically had it with women - with the manipulation, exploitation, humiliation, etc.
If I had to start all over again, I would probably just become a celebate, committed single. I would support my 2 children in whatever way I can. One is age 17 and the other 15, so they are not far off from adulthood. I would probably work my job, which I despise, until they were adults. Then I would probably start from scratch.
Start "putting thought" into it. Now. A lot. You are enmeshed in a passionless marriage. Neither you nor it will get better by you repeating the same thing year after year.
"I take my marriage vows as sacrosant and indissoluable." Really? Does your wife? Has she stuck to her marriage vows? The Bible has a lot to say about the physical passionate side of marriage. No religion that I'm aware of requires a couple to stay married no matter what, no matter how unhappy they are. Get real.
"I have practically had it with women - with the manipulation, exploitation, humiliation, etc." I understand your pain, believe me. But... a woman can only be as manipulative, exploitative and humiliating as her husband permits. You have not set her any effective boundaries.
"If I had to start all over again, I would probably just become a celibate, committed single." I mean this in the kindest possible way - but this just reeks of self-pity. Stop it. Of course you want to be feel alive and in a warm and loving marriage. That's why you're here. (And on a side-note, according to the earliest versions of the gospels, the word is "celebrate" not "celibate" - it was unfortunately mistranslated - hence for centuries now priests and monks have gone without sex for no good reason at all )
"my job, which I despise" So do something about it.
"Then I would probably start from scratch." And what I suggest to you - very strongly - is that you "start yourself from scratch" without getting divorced. Give the plan 12 months and see what effects it has on the dynamics of your marriage.
Quote:
I positively detest the job I work today. I mean, I really, really hate it. I do it to pick up a paycheck, in order to keep my wife in the extravagant lifestyle that she enjoys. I have given up several career opportunities at my wife's insistence. She wants a steady source of income, so she can spend all the money she wants.
I repeat, you are a nice guy. Get no more mr nice guy by robert glover. Today.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
Greetings, Mr. P (please, do change your screen name to something positive!);
The others above are giving you excellent advice. The first step towards fixing your Sex-Starved Marriage is to focus your efforts on healing YOURSELF, for YOUR own benefit.
The good news is, that it CAN be done. There are plenty of men here who can attest to that.
The 'bad' news is, that it will take a lot of time and concentrated effort on your part to affect the kinds of changes that will make a positive difference in your life.
But the rewards are well worth that effort.
In addition to this little on-line support group, I would strongly recommend finding an individual counselor that you trust and confide in --> you have plenty of issues from your past, and issues with your current relationships, that need to be delt with. Your attitudes and reactions to women, in particular, are unhealthy to the point of keeping you from ever achieving a happy and fulfilling relationship.
You might also want to look for a "Nice Guy" support group in your local area, which would give you a chance to meet and share experiences with other men who are dealing with, and struggling through, circumstances similar to your own. You most certainly are not alone -- as the rapid replies to your thread have indicated -- it's a common theme on this board.
The most important message to you right now is: Change your marriage by changing YOURSELF in a positive way. NO ONE is advocating that you become a selfish jerk, or a bullying, domineering ass. What is being suggested is that you begin the steps toward giving yourself the respect that you deserve, and expecting that same respect from others --> not in a mean, angry way, but in a calm, assertive fashion. You can continue to be loving, caring, and supporting, but do so from a position of strength, rather than feeling like a 'doormat.'
* A 'doormat' feels used and trodden upon, and resents being TAKEN FROM.
* A man who comes from a position of strength gets a great deal of fulfillment and satifaction out of GIVING to those he loves.
This is the critical difference, and what you need to work towards. I know: easier said than done, but it CAN be done.
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Several posters have advised me to get a new screen name. OK, this may a step in the right direction. And if this name is causing you embarrassments, I am sorry.
How do we do this? Is there instructions on how to change this? I looked in the Profile screen, from the My Stuff command, and I couldn't do it. Does an administrator have to do it? How do I contact them?
An Administrator will have to do this for you. On the FAQ page there is a link Contact Us it's the link to email an admin, just tell them your current screen name and the "new and improved" name that you would like instead. It may take a day or 2.
I have been reading your situation and these guys are giving you some great advice. Before any positive action can take place you have to first start with a positive thought to make it happen. All action starts in the mind that God gave to you to make things happen. You can do this man!
Sorry, folks. It has been a while since I have been back. I have been travelling extensively for work, and haven't had time to respond to some of the last posts.
I am seeing a marriage counselor in my area. He runs a Christian-based counseling service not far from my home. I am getting good, solid advice from him. He is echoing many of the points of advice that I have seen in this forum.
Yes, I have been far too weak, passive, and inadequate, and I have ceded much of the control of my marriage, family, and life, to my spouse. Yes, this is my fundamental problem, and this has to change, if there is to be any improvement in my marriage or sex life.
In my drive to be the "anti-father" - the exact reverse of my own father - I have gone to far. In my desire not to be him, I have gone too far to the opposite extreme, becoming thoroughly weak, passive, and ineffectual. (And this is common for children from grossly dysfunctional families. My counselor has explained this to me, and it makes perfect sense.)
Growing up, I had no male role models to base my life upon, so I come up with my own template. Predictably, I became a person who is more feminine than masculine, since the only role models around were female. Hence, my wife sees me as weak, unmasculine, and effeminate, which is why she despises me so much, and treats me with such contempt. This is the problem that has to be fixed, before any other issue in my marriage or sex life can be addressed.
My next session with my counselor is next week. I will try to keep everyone advised of my progress. And I am grateful for everyone's support up to this point. Thank you very much.
Your thread caught my eye, and it sounds like you are off to a good start with the advice you are getting here and in your counseling. And yes... please change your name!!! Thoughts can be very powerful...what we think and say to ourselves can bring about health, or can become toxic.
I know you are going to be learning a lot about becoming a healthy man, but here's the cool thing...your health will result in changes in the marital dynamic that may awaken your W. I have been in her shoes ( losing my sexuality by becoming overcontrolling)...it may have appeared that I was strong and doing well, but I was miserable. I've had the incredible opportunity to become more in touch with my femininity, and I feel so much more integrated and whole. Your work will not only help you...you will also be doing your W a favor!!
My wife is telling me emphatically that she wants a divorce. She is not willing to attend any marriage counseling sessions, nor read any of the marriage books I have bought her. She just wants out.
I am trying to change myself from the "doormat" described above. I am trying to establish boundaries within my relationship with her, and take control of my life, and my portion of the relationship. I have tried only small steps so far. But they have not gone over well.
Unfortunately, my wife will not accept that. She expects the doormat back. She has screamed at me, ranted and raved, and used every type of obscenity imaginable, as I try to do this. She has used expressions such as "f you" and "stick it up...." You get the point.
Now she has hit me with an ultimatum: either I need to leave in the next 2 years, or she will throw me out. Effectively, she has given me a timeline, until she will divorce me. I have two years left, and after both of our children are out of the house, she is going to toss me aside. She doesn't care what I think, at this point.
What should I do in these circumstances? Should I go back to the weak, passive man that I was before? Is this the only way to save my marriage, under these circumstances? Or should I continue this process, and see my marriage slowly deteriorate to nothing? Those seem like the only 2 options at this point. Any other suggestions?
)