I feel so ashamed and pathetic. My wife has denied me sexual relations for over a decade. She had a hysterectomy several years ago, but she has been denying me sex long before that point. She really is not interested in sex, and in fact, doesn't even want to discuss the subject.
It has been 14 years since this started. Is my marriage a fraud? I really don't want to give up on my marriage. I take my vows to my wife, and to God, seriously.
I have tried being a good husband. I has never cheated on my wife, and always been there fore her. I have ceded much of the control of our family to her. She decided what home we live in, what car I drive, what money we spend, where our children go to school.
Maybe I should just give up on sexual relations. My wife clearly has. She is focused really on money, not on God, or her husband. She really enjoys making money, and spending it. Perhaps I have enabled some of her behavior, but again, I have been extremely passive in our relationship.
We stopped having sex when I was in my 20's. I am now in my 40's, and not getting any younger. Maybe the time has just come to completely give up, and live out the rest of my life in this position. Quite honestly, I would almost prefer this, then another humiliating episode with my wife.
I feel like such a loser. Maybe that is the reality of the situation, and I need to accept it.
Your not pathetic! But you have come to the right place. You will get some great advice here, and it WILL be a good source of support for you.
I am in the same boat as you, and have just recently found this site as well. Its been a god send so far, and I am trying one last attempt with the help and advice from some ppl on this site before I give up entirely.
The first thing I want you to do is give yourself a new and positive screen name - I am not joking.
Then I want you to read my first few detailed posts to other members such as Tyguy and Tiredofpain - click on my name and you'll find them - you're not the first guy to show up on this board with this problem. I've given in those posts a lot of information already which I've no time to repeat right now.
I then want you have to consider this next point very carefully:
YOUR PROBLEM GOES WAY DEEPER THAN SIMPLY A LACK OF SEX.
As I've said to other guys in your position, the lack of sex is just a symptom (not the only one) of a certain mindset and attitude to life that you have and have probably had for many years.
I want you to start delving into that mindset - passive, fearful, ashamed, impoverished - right now. If you can, write up your thoughts on where it comes from, where you think its taking you right now, and where YOU want to take your life instead.
Have a real brainstorm and post up the results. I will check in later this weekend.
You've come to a good place with some very wise people that can definitely help you.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
The previous poster is spot on. Please change your name.
Women are not attractive to male "victims." This includes your W.
It's been forever since I've posted but neither here nor there. Got sentimental for the SSM BB as a single man and came home with one too many pinots in the belly.
Good chance I won't follow up so don't be offended, my friend.
She really is not interested in sex, and in fact, doesn't even want to discuss the subject.
It has been 14 years since this started. Is my marriage a fraud? I really don't want to give up on my marriage. I take my vows to my wife, and to God, seriously.
- No. She love sex. She forgot she does because you are showing nothing but weakness. She does not want to have sex with a weak, passive, self-loathing man. Yes, I'm harsh, but you need to snap out of your victim mentality.
No she won't discuss sex. Of course not. Too icky for the F. They would rather be lead by a strong male who takes control without verbiage. One who is confident and thinks he is a good catch for her.
Don't you know all human communication is 93% body language and tone and 7% spoken word?
Your M is not a fraud. Otherwise she would have left you long ago -- believe me, I know.
I have tried being a good husband. I has never cheated on my wife, and always been there fore her. I have ceded much of the control of our family to her. She decided what home we live in, what car I drive, what money we spend, where our children go to school.
- And this is your demise, laid right out in black and white. Your subconscious is telling you as much and that's why you're agitated.
Ever heard of The Passion Paradox? PhD wrote it. You see, basically he discovered the linkage between love and the feeling of lack of control. They are linked resolutely. The chemicals that feed the feelings of "love" are the chemicals that likewise feed the feelings of being "out of control."
Hence, if your W understands consciously or subconsciously, that you are there for her no matter what, in any circumstance, then her F brain gets bored and is actually mad at you for being such a lack of a challenge. Total control. Boring.
I know because my x ejected me from her life for the same reason ... why, who wants boring reliable me when there are so many alpha males with "edge" out there?
You're not "juicing" her. Start getting mysterious, friend. Pick up something new, find a passion.
But again, I have been extremely passive in our relationship.
We stopped having sex when I was in my 20's. I am now in my 40's, and not getting any younger. Maybe the time has just come to completely give up, and live out the rest of my life in this position. Quite honestly, I would almost prefer this, then another humiliating episode with my wife.
- See? You are telling yourself you are passive and your "man's man" inside is hating you for it. Your W is rapidly losing respect for you for being weak. But she loves you still. Dilemma. Therefore, her only option is to kkeep loving you while turning off her sexual attraction for you -- because that part of her is only attracted to a man who leads.
If you were just dating she would have already left you ore started Fing someone else by now. Harsh, yes, but factual. She's not happy that she's the "man" in your R. Again, yes, it hurts but you need to understand this.
START LEADING YOUR R.
I feel like such a loser. Maybe that is the reality of the situation, and I need to accept it.
You are not a loser. Just frustrated. Be the man she fell in love with. Dangit! Why do so many Ms forget that devil-may-care guy???
That's who they fell in love with!
Take charge, Mr. pathetic. If she only cares about money then find a way to make more and see if you still want her as a part of your life. If she just cares about a paycheck then think about your options in terms of ejecting or keeping her.
Stop making her the center of your universe. Make her a part of it that you want along for the ride. I'm telling you, Fs hate to be in charge of the relationship. They, for the most part, want to know they're with a man who can protect them and take care of them without much decisionmaking on their behalf.
Be strong, guy, you can do it.
Don't let her see any insecurity or weakness or self-loathing. That's a huge turnoff.
(Who is sick and tired of seeing the feminization/emasculization of the American male.)
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
You're getting good advice, Mr. P. Now, I'm going to back off from the good advice you're getting just a little bit.
What these people are trying to tell you is NOT that you are actually a weakling. What they're trying to tell you about is the image you're showing your wife. They're guessing (always keep in mind that everyone here is giving you educated guesses) that this is how she sees you, based on the impression you're giving here. And the point they're really trying to make is that while it's normal and natural and reasonable to feel pathetic and weak when the woman you share your life with doesn't want to make love with you, it doesn't work. It only drives her away. She can't be attracted to a man who believes he's a weakling.
Now, the good news: You are not a weakling. You could be decisive. You could be strong. You could be a leader, if perhaps a quiet one. The reason everyone here is focusing on your self-image and your behavior is not that your wife is necessarily blameless for the state of your marriage--it's only because they want to give you ways that YOU can start to make changes that will help YOU feel better, whether your wife is completely on board or not.
It won't be easy. If your wife has taken over so completely, she probably doesn't trust that you're going to take the lead in your life. She probably figures you'll slack off eventually and she'll be stuck taking care of you again, like you're just another one of the kids. Don't let it happen.
As to where this poor self-image comes from, well, I could write volumes on this. But here is a summary, and I will try to be brief:
a) alcoholic, abusive father, who committed suicide when I was growing up; b) weak, co-dependent mother, who enabled my father's behavior almost to the very end; c) impoverished background - my parents were never able to own their own home, for numerous reasons, see point a; d) Because of my impoverished background, and other reason, I was the school punching bag when I was growing up; e) women have always disliked me. For this reason, my love live and sex life have always been pathetic. I was virgin until age 23. My wife is the only woman I have ever had relations with. And she would only have sex with me for the first 4 years of our marriage.
So to summarize the situation, I suffer from a whole series of emotional problems, that make me extremely passive and fearful.
Another poster has told me to start acting like a man, and start being a leader - an alpha male, to use his terminology. In order to be that, I would need to become something I am not, and have never been. In fact, this would require me to change my personality entirely - to almost become someone else.
Is that what is required? Do I need to act like Dr. Jeckyl, and find the potion that transforms me into Mr. Hyde?
You ARE strong enough to be the leader in your own life. Alpha Male is an overused term . . . . in animals that actually have Alpha Males, there's only one in each social group, and he has to die or be defeated by a challenger before there can be a new one. The old wolf dies, and ONE of the young males becomes the alpha. The rest of the pack aren't worthless or pathetic because they aren't that one leader everyone looks to . . . but the rest of the pack generally know their place in the order.
Humans lose that sometimes. You don't have to be the one leader everyone looks up to, the big man on campus. You just have to find where you fit into things. You have to make yourself happy, and truthfully, your wife might or might not go along with that. You can't know for sure.
I haven't had the background you had. I won't kid you; that's a very hard start you had there. But I did come here having spent ten years in a sex-starved relationship with my wife. I hated it. I was furious at her constantly, and I was sure I was a pathetic loser. I was sure she was punishing me for a hundred different things, and what I hated most was when she would tell me that it wasn't me, she just wasn't interested--anything intended to spare my feelings only made it 100 times worse. I was sure she knew how I felt and just didn't care (and who cares how a pathetic loser feels anyway, when no one respects him?)
The truth was she didn't respect me.
I listened to people here (well, usually) and I did my best. I'm still working on it, but our life is very different now. It's not just the sex; I feel like I can earn her respect, now. I respect myself, and the truth is, I didn't before.
You might want to start by thinking about what would make you happy. If you were happy in your marriage, what would that look like? What would be happening? What would be said? Then you can worry about how to get there, but for now, think about your goals.
Have you read The Sex-Starved Marriage? I detest self-help books, but it makes a HUGE difference to read it. You'll see yourself in it, and you'll see her in it. It will help you realize that she might be just as trapped as you are. Just because she's the one who says "no" doesn't mean that she feels like she has any control over anything, either. Please read it.
I too think the use of "alpha" male is extremely overused and misappropriated. If the world were full of so called "alpha males" in every species it would be a complete disaster.
Don't worry, you don't have to be BMOC stud suddenly. You just have to be able to lead your wife.
Embracing an image of yourself as, as your Topic Title says, "Ashamed and Pathetic" is not going to get your W's amorous attentions. A friend of mine on here once labeled it aptly: "psychological stench."
If you loathe yourself then you have to understand your W has no choice but to also loathe you on some level. It's in her biology. Yes, we're above the animal kingdom proper but her genes still drive her to feel safe with a man who can guarantee the survival of her offspring and be strong when it's required.
Feeling weak and powerless and/or psychologically impotent sends a very repellent message to her and, *flip!* switches off her attraction for you.
As Bear said, it also causes her to lose respect for you and that's the deadliest consequence of them all. And you can't blame her. It's hard for humans to respect someone if he/she doesn't respect him/herself.
Your background sucks in terms of developing a healthy sense of self worth. If I could urge you to do something it would be to dissociate yourself from the guy in letters AD in your list.
The past is past. Gone. That's not who you are; so try not to punish yourself by continuing to associate with that image. You can change your self image any time you want in your life so why not now? You're in charge of what you do today, not that guy in the past. Not some punching bag outcast from the 9th grade.
Remember: it's not what you dit; it's what you do next that counts.
e) women have always disliked me. For this reason, my love live and sex life have always been pathetic. I was virgin until age 23. My wife is the only woman I have ever had relations with. And she would only have sex with me for the first 4 years of our marriage.
- I would argue this first part. I would guess you felt they never liked you because you never liked yourself much nor thought worthy of their attention. Hence, they had no choice but to shun you.
You can't go back and change your sexual history/feeling of inadequacy but you can try and gain more confidence right now one step at a time.
Listen. It's very, very hard for a woman not to, again, on some level, want to jump on top of a man who radiates he hasn't a clue in the bedroom in terms of taking control of the situation.
I heard it from a hotti's own mouth recently. She said even if she's really into a guy or even dating him, if he says he's only slept with say 3 Fs in his life she says something inside her twinges and she thinks to herself, what? 3? Why? Is there something wrong with him? Said she couldn't explain it exactly but that it was almost better to hear about a guy who had a lot of encounters with women as she can forgive his playing the field since he obviously has what "it" takes to attract enough Fs to sleep with him.
But don't beat yourself up. You're fine. Your W knows you're not a Don Juan. If she were after that, she wouldn't be with you. You obviously have some very attractive qualities of your own for her.
Just gotta start believing in yourself so she can get on board and believe in you too and find herself sexually attracted to you.
So to summarize the situation, I suffer from a whole series of emotional problems, that make me extremely passive and fearful.
- Immediately remove the word "suffer" from your vocabulary. This is self-imposed and pointless self-torture. Remember, your W doesn't want to feel she's with a man who thinks of himself as a fearful "victim"
Start today and tell yourself you are no longer that guy. Continuing being passive and fearful in your R is forcing your W into a role she does not like -- wresting control of your household from you so everything in your lives -- heck, and your future -- doesn't sink into a morass of fear and powerlessness at all levels.
Is that what is required? Do I need to act like Dr. Jeckyl, and find the potion that transforms me into Mr. Hyde?
- Not a complete personality change. Small steps, pal. Dr. Jekyll is a great guy. He has a career path and a passion. Your image of yourself is already Mr. Hyde. Pretty ugly view of yourself.
Come on. You gotta start seeing yourself as something valuable for your W to hold onto. A real catch. Trust me, it will make her feel much happier and grateful to have a guy who is so self assured and even the envy of her friends.
I know. That seems scary impossible right now. But you gotta take that first small step.
I might suggest starting by being decisive in your R. If your W asks you what you want to do, eat etc. be the guy who already has the answer...
NOT: "Sigh. I don't care. What do you want to do/eat?"
YES: "Hm, I suddenly have a craving for Mexican food. Get ready, babe, we're going for Mexican."
W: "But I don't want Mexican."
You: "O come on, it will be fine. You asked, I'm choosing. If you hate it we'll we'll wing it and go somewhere else."
You can do it, Im Pathetic. God, I hate your screen name.
If I were to give you one last word of advice it would be to start being positive and do this one thing for your W every single day, no matter what:
MAKE HER SMILE.
At least once each day. Not gifts, etc. Just let her know she's sexy and fun. Hang in there.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Dude (you REALLY do need to get a better screen name),
I've read about your background - that was tough - but... everyone has had some kind of childhood problems. Very few men (or women) don't feel they have some kind of inner unhappiness or wound or hole inside them. It is these issues that can sabotage our adult relationships - if we let them.
A painful but very necessary lesson I've learned is that a man can't look to his wife for love he didn't get from his parents when he was a boy. He mustn't expect her to tend his childhood wounds. He has to do that himself. He has to fill the emptiness inside himself. Once ful(l)filled, he can then love his wife from strength and want and desire, not weakness or neediness or fear. If he's with the right kind of woman, he will then get womanly love back.
I see definite positives in your situation - despite your difficult start, you have a job, a wife and children. You write honestly and do have insight into your current situation. And you do want it to improve.
But you clearly suffer from low self-esteem, see yourself as a victim, and are disconnected from your inner masculine spirit. I very much used to be in that (mental) situation. The good news is that your problems can definitely be solved - IF you are willing to take responsibility for yourself, work HARD, and do the things I suggest for YOURSELF first and foremost. By that I mean that you must not improve yourself in the hope that your wife will "reward" you with lots of sex (you probably know that that kind of thinking has got you nowhere, but I emphasise the point).
What your life must be about from now on, is being the best man you can be. If you conscientiously set about that task and STICK to it, you will inevitably alter the dynamics of your marriage, your relationship with your children, and probably every other relationship you have.
I'm going to post again with some more ideas, but for now there are four things I want you to consider:
(1) I wouldn't normally suggest this, but have you had therapy or counselling for your childhood issues? In other words, have you had these wounds tended by a professional, or are you expecting (even just subconsciously) your wife to do it for you? Sex makes a lousy bandage. Think about it.
(2) I understand you are probably filled with all kinds of fear at the thought of changing yourself, of confronting (and being rejected by) your wife. But fear is an integral part of human existence, and a man must learn to confront his fears if there is to be joy in his life. The very worst thing that is ever going to happen to you is that you will die. Well, you're going to die anyway, right? Its guaranteed. So, your immediate concern must be how you're going to live up until that inevitable moment of death. And it makes no sense for fear of lesser things than death - disapproval of others, rejection by your wife etc - to stifle you.
(3) This next thing is going to sound a bit weird. Start smiling frequently. When you feel depressed and unloved this is the last thing you feel like doing. It feels forced, even fake. But the very act of smiling does actually release certain chemicals which have the effect of lifting the mood. Start smiling throughout the day.
(4) You asked:
"Another poster has told me to start acting like a man, and start being a leader - an alpha male, to use his terminology. In order to be that, I would need to become something I am not, and have never been. In fact, this would require me to change my personality entirely - to almost become someone else.
Is that what is required? Do I need to act like Dr. Jekyll, and find the potion that transforms me into Mr. Hyde?"
The short answer to your question is YES. If you are deeply unhappy with your life and marriage, then yes, be prepared to make massive changes. Your personality is not some hermetically sealed formula, nor is it set in stone. Its a product of all the experiences you have had so far, your mental reactions to them, and the beliefs you have as a result. Your personality, your values, and the image you show to your wife and the world, are all under YOUR control. No-one else's. Your personality is a product of your own willpower. If you really think that people are just "born" happy or strong or successful, you are wrong. Such people are in touch with their inner spirit and desires, and build everything else, including their personality, thoughts and actions, around it. Ask yourself what you current personality has brought you so far?
I will be back a little later.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
