Out of limbo land

[nerraw]

So I'm out of limbo land and it's not what I was expecting. For the last few weekends my wife was coming around and calling more often just to hang out. In fact on Labor Day, my birthday also, she came over and spent the entire day. It turned out that a friend had died and she wanted to be around family but had no where else to go. Her family lives over 200miles away and me and my mother are the only family she has here. Anyway I was thinking things were getting better just on a slow pace. We hadn't talked about our relationship for 2 months but did spend time talking about just normal daily stuff; work, the kid, friends, normal bs. The kid was sick on Thursday so she took off and I took off Friday. On Thursday she was bringing him over so I could watch him. I called her when I left work and asked since she would be over there around dinner time why don't we go out to eat. She agreed and everything sound cool. I went to the gym and then called her to tell her I was on the way back to my house. We started just cracking some jokes and laughing about some stupid stuff. I pulled up to my house and she just arrived. I went up and gave her a friendly hello hug and we went inside. I told her to give me 5 mins to clean up and we can leave. I went back down stairs and as I was tying my shoes she said it wouldn't be a good idea to go out to eat. I was like okay why not. She proceeded to tell me that she didn't want to lead me on and that her feelings hadn't changed. (I guess the last 5 times we went out for breakfast and the time we spent together on the weekends weren't consider leading me on). I told her I understand and I respect the fact that she has made the decescion and explained to her I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. She is still sticking to the fact that I verbally abused her and that she said the numbed herself and shut her heart down because that was the only way she could live with me. (I do admit I can be a little zealous in my sarcasm and I have a hard time judging when I do hurt others feelings but I've been going to counseling for the last 4 months to help with that.) We didn't argue but just went over the same thing she has said before. She again complained about the money factor and that she is always cutting corners. I had to tell her that for me that is a valid reason to continue to try and work at our marriage. She just rolled her eyes and said that she just doesn't love me that way anymore and that we don't click. She cares alot about me,I am a great friend, sees me as family, enjoys my company (we don't click apparently??) but just doesn't want to be married to me or anyone for that matter. As she put it she has one man in her life, our son, and that is enough. After about 15mins she said she was going to go home. I gave her a hug, kissed her on the cheek, and told her I loved her that for me there will always be the option for another day 1 and that we can do this anytime. As she walked out the door she started to cry. I just don't get it if it's been 4 months and from day one she has said she wanted to divorce me then why cry about it now?

So I have to see her again today in about an hour because she is dropping the kid off while she takes a course at the local college. I gonna hold it together and just not talk about anything except her class. It looks like it's time to go from dusk to midnight on going dark. No more contact unless I'm picking up the kid. I know we are her only family up here but I'm just hoping that the complete lack of contact will slow it down and let her see what it will be really like. I started going dark back in July after she did something that really hurt me on the 4th and we didn't talk for 2 weeks. She told me back then that she wanted to divorce me but I was the one that asked that time. So I decided to leave her alone and let her guide any relationship talk. She started to call on occasion and then she started to call at night to see what I was up to because she was bored or lonely and that started in the beginning of August. So back to the darkness and just wondering if that ax will finally ever drop.

The only question I do have is should I ask her to go to counseling one more time , for my sake, by herself to explain everything to my counselor? I hate the fact that it feels like the counselor is only hearing my side of the story and continues to tell me yes I did some stupid things but they don't constitute a divorce and my wife is the one that needs to look deeper inside to see why she is really doing this. She met with her once in the very beginning and when we walked out she said that she wanted to divorce me and not even try to work it out. That was 4 months ago and every time I go the counselor ask if my wife will ever come back. I really want the counselor to hear her side with me not in the room. That way I can truly believe what my counselor says and maybe I can continue to heal from this faster.

[nerraw]

Damn... She just dropped the kid off and she is sick. Looks like she has strep or some sort of throat infection. Again she says she doesn't have any money to go to the doctor. This is getting so dumb. I love the girl and just wished that I wasn't such an ass before. I want to offer her money for the doctor but damn it feels like it would be out of line. I would do it for any friend but for some reason it just doesn't feel right in this situation.

[EnergyAZ]

So I'm out of limbo land and it's not what I was expecting. For the last few weekends my wife was coming around and calling more often just to hang out. In fact on Labor Day, my birthday also, she came over and spent the entire day. It turned out that a friend had died and she wanted to be around family but had no where else to go. Her family lives over 200miles away and me and my mother are the only family she has here. Anyway I was thinking things were getting better just on a slow pace. We hadn't talked about our relationship for 2 months but did spend time talking about just normal daily stuff; work, the kid, friends, normal bs. The kid was sick on Thursday so she took off and I took off Friday. On Thursday she was bringing him over so I could watch him. I called her when I left work and asked since she would be over there around dinner time why don't we go out to eat. She agreed and everything sound cool. I went to the gym and then called her to tell her I was on the way back to my house. We started just cracking some jokes and laughing about some stupid stuff. I pulled up to my house and she just arrived. I went up and gave her a friendly hello hug and we went inside. I told her to give me 5 mins to clean up and we can leave. I went back down stairs and as I was tying my shoes she said it wouldn't be a good idea to go out to eat. I was like okay why not. She proceeded to tell me that she didn't want to lead me on and that her feelings hadn't changed. (I guess the last 5 times we went out for breakfast and the time we spent together on the weekends weren't consider leading me on). I told her I understand and I respect the fact that she has made the decescion and explained to her I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. She is still sticking to the fact that I verbally abused her and that she said the numbed herself and shut her heart down because that was the only way she could live with me. (I do admit I can be a little zealous in my sarcasm and I have a hard time judging when I do hurt others feelings but I've been going to counseling for the last 4 months to help with that.) We didn't argue but just went over the same thing she has said before. She again complained about the money factor and that she is always cutting corners. I had to tell her that for me that is a valid reason to continue to try and work at our marriage. She just rolled her eyes and said that she just doesn't love me that way anymore and that we don't click. She cares alot about me,I am a great friend, sees me as family, enjoys my company (we don't click apparently??) but just doesn't want to be married to me or anyone for that matter. As she put it she has one man in her life, our son, and that is enough. After about 15mins she said she was going to go home. I gave her a hug, kissed her on the cheek, and told her I loved her that for me there will always be the option for another day 1 and that we can do this anytime. As she walked out the door she started to cry. I just don't get it if it's been 4 months and from day one she has said she wanted to divorce me then why cry about it now?

So I have to see her again today in about an hour because she is dropping the kid off while she takes a course at the local college. I gonna hold it together and just not talk about anything except her class. It looks like it's time to go from dusk to midnight on going dark. No more contact unless I'm picking up the kid. I know we are her only family up here but I'm just hoping that the complete lack of contact will slow it down and let her see what it will be really like. I started going dark back in July after she did something that really hurt me on the 4th and we didn't talk for 2 weeks. She told me back then that she wanted to divorce me but I was the one that asked that time. So I decided to leave her alone and let her guide any relationship talk. She started to call on occasion and then she started to call at night to see what I was up to because she was bored or lonely and that started in the beginning of August. So back to the darkness and just wondering if that ax will finally ever drop.

The only question I do have is should I ask her to go to counseling one more time , for my sake, by herself to explain everything to my counselor? I hate the fact that it feels like the counselor is only hearing my side of the story and continues to tell me yes I did some stupid things but they don't constitute a divorce and my wife is the one that needs to look deeper inside to see why she is really doing this. She met with her once in the very beginning and when we walked out she said that she wanted to divorce me and not even try to work it out. That was 4 months ago and every time I go the counselor ask if my wife will ever come back. I really want the counselor to hear her side with me not in the room. That way I can truly believe what my counselor says and maybe I can continue to heal from this faster.

So many similarities in a WAW its astounding. Almost like these women are clones of each other. Its symptomatic of disease

We men did this. We were abusive. Accept it. Understand why you have such tendencies. Eliminate it. (easier said than done, get to work!)

Live the changes instead of talking about them. Be excited for your future life, a new & improved man, a wiser & more compassionate man. Express optimisim about a future W who you wont make mistakes with.

When I do this - my WAW seems to come around. (a little)

When I discuss our R - it turns her off. (a lot!)

When we try to be normal, just hang out and stuff - no heavy duty talk, she enjoys herself - to the point she feels compelled to throw out the disclaimer "I still feel like leaving" just so I am not 'lead on'. Its a buzz kill, but I learn to just smile and say "Yeah, I know"

In a way, it almost feels like they are doing it on purpose to force us to improve, but they dont seem to realize it. They LOVE us dearly, just feel hopeless about the R and create the idea in their minds that life will be so much easier alone (green grass). Once they finally develop the emotional strength to make the decision to leave you, they feel liberated. Its actually good thing, its a sign of personal growth. You may not agree with it, but it commands your respect.

Give em rope. Maybe they hang themselves, miss us badly, especially if we are truly the men they always hoped we could be.

They say 'its too late'. But space/time can do some good things, let cooler heads prevail.

Or maybe not.

Always be prepared to move forward. Either way, you win. You come out stronger and wiser. More self aware, more mature, more compassionate. If she gets to benefit from all that - wonderful!

If not, eventually you will move on to meet another special person who will be so unbelievably thrilled to meet a man such as yourself. You will be a rare man indeed - just go ask any of your single female friends about the average man they come across out in the world.

[whitneypinch]

My god, you are sooo right. They are all the same !!!!

[MsMelancoly]

Hi nerraw, My personal opinion is don't push the M counseling issue. As others have told me if you make a step forward - be ready for your S to take a step back. This is a test for you, to keep the changes going w/yourself & show her the real YOU. What stage are you at? The friends stage? Be happy & be patient.

[Jayce]

"the kid" I assume is 18 mo old son? Maybe you need sensitivity training along with the other counseling. Words reflect feelings, whether you realize it or not. Right now, your relationship with him is the most important thing to work on. He's not too young to pick up on what's going on. That might be a change she notices as a good thing.

[nerraw]

Thanks for all the pointers. I'm pretty much back to the minimal contact as much as possible.I'm letting her contact me. I've had to call her twice for some daycare stuff and when I went out of town. When we do talk we catch up on whats gone on. As for my son we went to Philly last week to see the great grandparents and had a wonderful time, except for dealing with TSA. I lost my ID and that wasn't fun getting back on the plane. TSA has ruined travel but that's for another blog sometime. Anyway still talking with W just not about anything on the R. Had a moment that she seemed to slip up a little and said something really nice followed by a hug that wasn't just a friendly hug. I'm not gonna take it for more than it was but it was nice to feel some warmth again. Finally to the point where I know I'll be okay either way things happen. We do share a wonderful kid and if being a parent is all that is left of our relationship then right now there is no one else I would want to share that with.

Jayce before jumping to conclusions in our family "kid" is an term of endearment both of us use. I know it can be interpreted as an insensitive term but different strokes for different folks.

Well I have to get to bed I have a busy weekend ahead.

[sandi2]

Hello, welcome to the DB board and I hope you will stick around. Some don't hear what they want or they grow impatient and leave. But, there is much to learn and you are young and have a lot of life ahead of you. I hope it will be shared with your wife and son.

I'm not sure what you meant by "you" being out of limbo land. I've never heard of the LBH being in limbo land. But, as you said, it wasn't what you expected. What did you expect?

I did not notice where you had read Michelle's books. Have you ordered the DR book yet? It is very important that you read this b/c these are your tools to retore your M and become a better person while doing it.

I was almost a WAW so I think I know a little about what your W may be going through, however, I think it was due to very different reasons.

There was something in your post that really jumped out at me.

She is still sticking to the fact that I verbally abused her and that she said the numbed herself and shut her heart down because that was the only way she could live with me. (I do admit I can be a little zealous in my sarcasm and I have a hard time judging when I do hurt others feelings but I've been going to counseling for the last 4 months to help with that.)

I got the impression that you do not take this very seriously. Plus, as you said, you have been going to counseling the last 4 months for help with that. If you have been in counseling, then that tells me that you did indeed have a very serious problem with verbal abuse. And, you started it "after" your wife left you.

Now, let me, if I may, tell you what verbal abuse does to a woman. You can call it a "little zealous sarcasm" and judging, or whatever you want, but it is still critisizing. When a woman hears this all the time from the one that is suppose to cherish her above all others.......I think there was something about that in the wedding vows.......anyway, it tears her apart and puts her down until her self esteem is gone. I have often used the illustration of a woman being like a flower that needs to be have water and sunshine to bloom and be beautiful. If you ignore that flower, it will wither and die. What is worse, is when the flower is simply stepped on until it is crushed and has no life in it. I think that is what you have done to your wife. You have killed her emotionally. That is why she said she had to shut down in order to live with you. You should be thankful. Some women find things to do to their husbands while he is sleeping. Instead, she just walked away from you.

A woman can take just so much until she feels drained of any desire or attraction or even love. She has hurt so long that all she feels now is numbness. I can't imagine living with a man that would do that to his W. My sister has lived with her H for over 20 years that has verbally abused her. He might as well have physically abused her. The only difference is the scars are on the inside instead of the outside. I don't understand it. Does it make a male feel more like a "man" to put his wife down and make her feel lower than dirt? Does he get turned on by emotionally kicking her in the guts all the time? Or, does he feel more like a "superman" b/c he is bigger and stronger than she is? Is that the only way he can feel good about himself is by putting her down? Is feeling "superior" to her that important.....or just superior to anyone....and she is the only one that will take it. You see, I could get very ugly about this b/c I would not take that kind of crap from any man. I would have any man's sorry a$$ put in his place before he could turn around. But, you are lucky. You aren't married to me. So, back to your "cherished" wife that has walked away....

Why is it important for her to see your counselor and hear her side of the story? You see, I don't trust you. I don't think it is for her good that you want her to go, I think it is for your benefit.

Now, I am throwing out a challenge here to you and I'm going to see if you are man enough to take me on. Are you? I want to see if you have the guts to stick this out and see what you are really made of.......or rather what you can be made of. B/c it is what you can become that really matters. Why do you think she started "coming around" lately? It may be that you are beginning to show some positive results from the counseling sessions. Frankly, I am surprised she could even be interested to find out, but apparently she sees something there. So, she may just have enough left inside of her for this to work. But, you......YOU will have to be the one to do all the work. Not her. Just you. Can you do it? Are you up for the challenge? Have you got the ba!!s for it? We will find out. B/c the first thing you need to do it get that book.

You have a long road ahead of you, but if you want this bad enough......you can do it. It has been done before, but it is up to you. Now is the time. Don't wait around to see what she does b/c she doesn't have the problem.......you do. Only you can change you. You cannot control what she does or change her. So, let's see what you will do. Is it a deal?


P.S. Give the girl money to go to the doctor!

[Jayce]

OK, I get the "family thing" about calling your son "the Kid", sorry. I stand by what I said about sensitivity training & am adding anger management, tho. Verbal abuse erodes love for the abuser. On some level an abuser may expect his wife to improve in some way as a result of sarcasm, criticism, but that'll never happen. My guess is you learned this behavior at home as a kid.

A more serious thing would be your son seeing this. No matter how young. You will be creating a future abuser. OR...when he is big enough, say around 15, he'll go after you for attacking her, verbally or not. Remember the adage, the best gift a father can give a child is to love (and respect) his mother. Causing a split that exposes a child to economic hardship is no picnic for him either.

I don't get why guys are so shocked when their wives leave them after verbal, or physical abuse or being cheated on. Not sure if the hurt is real or its just that her leaving is telling the tale on you. Heard a guy say "I don't understand why she left. I never hit her" Liked the couple who didn't yell at each other when they made mistakes, like spilling a can of paint or denting a fender-the wife told me the first time he berated her she told him he wasn't her dad & she wasn't his mom, they were adults and should treat each other accordingly. Even little kids feel bad about mistakes and don't need to be scolded and belittled.

How would you feel if she treated you the way you treated her? Never happen? Not a woman's place? I know guys married to ball busters who left. If you really want to reconcile, at some point you have to put yourself in her "shoes" and think it through. Takes a long time to rebuild trust. I'm sorry you're hurting, know its no fun waiting it out. Takes over you're whole life. If you haven't read the Mars Venus book, give it a try. I am & I hear myself and H both in the list of "typical" comments couples make. None of us are special or exceptional, we're all humans whose behavior follows the same patterns much as we'd like to believe we're better or smarter than that. Nothing wrong with learning from someone who has figured out our mistakes and wrote a book to help us.