After a great deal of procrastination, I have decided to start my own thread.
This will do three things:
(1) Explain my background.
(2) Demonstrate the lessons I have personally learned and which may benefit other posters.
(3) I am now at a stage in my life (a new and exciting one) where I think input from the other posters (particularly women) on this board will definitely help.
So here goes. Compared to other posters, I'm probably going to be pretty sparse. As far as I am aware my wife does not know I post here and at this stage I see no need or reason to tell her. But in future I may do, or she may find out. She is a very private person, particularly about these issues. Therefore out of love and respect for her I will keep the details minimal. On the other hand, if it had not been for the knowledge I have gained on this board, we would in all probability be divorced by now, whereas instead our marriage really is pretty good. Not perfect mind, but better than its been for years. So there is a balance to strike here, and I feel justified in telling a little about my situation, in order to carry on the good work.
Me - early 30s. My wife - very intelligent and beautiful, early 40s. Together over 10 years. Married over 9 years. First child born 6 years ago. I worked (long hours), my wife stayed at home. First 6 months after birth not so bad (I thought). After that, very difficult - me struggling with very demanding and stressful work, my wife struggling at home, little quality time or connection. Pretty much no ML during that first year after birth. So I started looking at internet porn instead (I'd looked at porn infequently in the past).
Just into the second year, my wife tells me she can't cope with such long hours by me. She is clearly at her wit's end. I immediately get help about workaholism. I still do the same work, but cut back the hours a lot, and spend much more time at home. If anything I overcompensate (nice guy) as I am now definitely missing ML. I raise the ML issue around the 18 month mark. There are some minor improvements but they don't last. We are also doing a lot of work on our house.
Another bumpy year passes, during which I no doubt make every SSM and nice guy mistake in the books. My frustration is now growing. That turns to anger, which then turns to mild depression. During this year I am also now using internet porn a lot more frequently.
During the third year after birth, there are more ups and downs, lots of rows, tears, dark nights of the soul, my work suffers, and financial problems start looming like storm clouds. I manage to hold myself together for the outside world - just. But I have now fallen into serious victim mode whereby everything would be better if only we ML often (though I already knew deep down there was much more to our problems). Then halfway through the third year a kind of breakthrough - I chance upon a copy of one of the mars and venus books. It gets me thinking. I also find SSM and this board and start lurking, though not posting. I make some changes. But there is no lasting response from my wife, and so I still feel full of resentment and anger.
Around the beginning of the fourth year I'm very much depressed and the whole world seems grey and lacking in meaning. I at least recognise the absurdity (spiritual and logical) of this, but nonetheless can't seem to shake it off. Everything - absolutely everything - seemed pointless without sex (crazy I know). Its becoming clear to me that my depression and this SSM cannot go on. More rows and tears. Urgings and ultimatums. At this point my wife seems to at last "get it" to a point, and agrees that ML has to be a part of our marriage.
But by now this doesn't seem like nearly enough. I am also feeling very "entitled", especially having been the breadwinner for all these sex starved years. I am thinking about sex far more than is healthy and even thinking of doing it with other women. I have by now convinced myself that sex is the cure for all of my problems, whereas the reality is that it has become an excuse for letting myself go far more than I ever should have. That includes my work - there are serious financial problems, which halfway through the fourth year threaten to overwhelm us.
How this story would have ended I really don't know. Maybe my instinct for self-preservation would have taken over. I certainly knew, on some deep level (* incidentally that deep place is of primary importance to every man), that I could not simply crumple up and let life swallow me whole. What I do know is that at that time I was in dire need of guidance and a different perspective on just about everything. My good fortune was to get hold of the way of the superior man, which had been referred to quite a bit on this BB. Its ideas rang a lot of bells and more importantly gave me the new perspective (and kick up the backside!) I sorely needed. I very seriously resolved to do my level best to be the superior man and to never give up trying. I started doing all the things I now advise other men to do.
Improvements in my marriage started to take place surprisingly quickly (within months). This was down to the utter determination that I had by then filled myself with. Pretty much a complete change of character. I will give more details about this in later posts.
There have been ups and downs along the way since - shaky days, patches of depression and moodiness - but the overall direction has still been up. I have now truly learned the importance of the mind and the will in shaping thoughts, actions, life and relationships. I literally "willed" myself to change and have a more rewarding life and a happier marriage. Whenever I have a "shaky day" now, I gently remind myself just how far I have come, and this provides the fuel to lift my mood and propel me onwards.
My career has improved, our financial problems have lessened (though everyone has financial problems of some kind), my interactions with my wife became much healthier, and our marriage more playful and enjoyable again. To give my wife very great credit, she was still with me despite the very difficult times we had gone through. We were still ML at times and so I did at least have something to "work with" in that regard. That aspect of our marriage definitely improved as well. I will give more of my own ideas about this in other posts.
The journey continued... Into the fifth year after birth I came across no more mr nice guy - and I started to learn even more - how a lot of the problems had started in the first place, and had then spun almost out of control. So that gave me a new dimension and strengthened the resolve I already had.
Onwards and upwards... Its now just over six years since the birth of my first child. And I was confident enough about myself and our marriage to have a second child with my wife - born earlier this year!
I am now looking forward to taking my wife and I (slowly and sensitively of course) into this next phase in our marriage, post-second child. I am looking forward to supporting her in her role as a mother, but also building a new kind of loving and sensual relationship with her. In other words trying to do what I pretty much failed through my ignorance to do the first time.
So that's my story so far. Any thoughts or ideas are welcome.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
Hey - S&A has his very own thread now! We have been anxiously awaiting this for a very long time.
S&A the story of your SSM began just as mine did and I'm sure many others do. It's what we do to get our marriages back on track that makes the difference in whether they survive and become healthy again or not. The sooner we do the right things the better... but it's never too late to start.
I'm so glad you are here to help steer me in the right direction.
The way I see it at the moment is that marriage (and life generally) is a continual process of creation i.e. what thoughts, words, actions and emotions am I going to create today? How do I bring the best out of myself and the best out of my wife?
I am still discovering and still creating.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
Hi S&A, just wanted to check in and thank you for posting your sitch.
I have been GAL-ing a lot lately and haven't posted much...but I just wanted to make sure to thank you for posting yours as we have been waiting for this post for a while now!
I am looking forward to supporting her in her role as a mother, but also building a new kind of loving and sensual relationship with her. In other words trying to do what I pretty much failed through my ignorance to do the first time.
Hello S&A...you had mentioned you were going to come back and post some specific questions ... just letting you know I am checking on you and ready for it when you post.
So this is the current issue I would appreciate some input on.
As you will see from my situation, the catalyst to my SSM was the birth of our first child, when I did not give my wife the presence and support she needed. My own reactions to the SSM - "nice", anger, resentment, depression, fear - multiplied the problem. My wife had her own issues as well.
Over the last couple of years we've both made tremendous progress. Our marriage is far healthier, more playful and constructive. We've also had another child, who is still less than 6 months old. Both mother and child are doing extremely well .
From my own viewpoint, I have definitely learned my lessons from the first time around, and have given my wife so much more help and support that I can't believe how lousy I was before (I guess I just didn't know I had it in me!).
I'm also still working effectively on my career, and making time for myself as well.
So my current state of mind is indeed one of being strong and alive. I do now truly believe that sex is a want and not a need. I therefore want to be, and will be, patient about recreating a physical relationship with my wife. I want to lead my wife along that route in a sensitive and sustainable way... in other words by baby steps.
What I would be really grateful for is some input, particularly from the ladies, on the perspective of a woman that has given birth less than 6 months ago. In other words, how does she feel, physically, emotionally, mentally, even spiritually?
When and how do these feelings change and over what timescale?
What things can be done to help progress our intimate relationship and when? What things should I definitely not try?!?
Many thanks in advance.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
I have a story for you and then I will come back with more comments later...
First off, my disclaimer...you saw the pics of my kids...it has been literally 20 years since I had someone in diapers depending on me (ugh, I'm old)...so for that reason, its getting harder and harder to remember the time in my life you are specifically asking about.
But a couple things popped into my mind, more stories to share than advice really, but I think you can glean the gist of the advice by reading the stories.
Story number 1:
When I was newly separated and dating, before I met my fiance, I was out at a club dancing with some of my gf's one night. This club was kinda sleezy, but fun, and it was for us folks aged 35 and up (versus the teeny bopper crowd). It was a great night for me and my girls.
This type of atmosphere is "dance only" for me... I would never get someone's number, go home with someone, or do anything else of that sort. But flirting and talking and dancing, you bet!
So I'm getting chatted up by a gorgeous black man (sorry if his color is irrelevant, but he was just so gorgeous)...and he's saying things like "girl, what's your story?" And then he tells me "no wait, I bet I can read what your story is just by looking at ya..."
He looks me up and down, pauses, thinks, then said:
"Ok well, you're divorced...you're out having a good time with friends, hanging out...I can tell you're pretty open about things cuz you're wearing open toed shoes...you got a couple of kids at home, but you're not in a relationship right now....am I pretty close?"
I was like "hey, that's pretty good! You sure got your game on". I wasn't all THAT impressed actually, even though he was basically spot on...but the reality was that nearly every man and woman in that room was in a similar position, so you know, the odds were in his favor. But I was being flirty and encouraging him...
But then he said something that SHOCKED me into being suddenly and completely turned on...he said:
"Yeah, a couple of kids right?" (then he kinda leaned in, lowered the pitch of his voice down into his throat and whispered...) "...huh, if you were MY woman I'd give ya a couple more..."
! ! ! ! !
Ok now, this is hard to explain but I'll do my best.
This man understood something about women that even most women don't understand. He understood that "giving someone a baby" is not actually sexual, its not actually spiritual, but its some how both and neither. To a woman, for a man to "give her his baby" - - is the ultimate way he can say he loves her and wants her. He not only wants her sexually, he wants her in an evolutionary sense...which - when this man said that to me - my evolutionary sexuality woke up immediately and knocked on my ovaries and said "whose there? Who just said they were gonna give me a couple of babies?" I was stirred up, in other words...and the guy KNEW I would be!
- - - - -
So S&A...if you can mull that story over for a while and comtemplate why a total stranger could affect me that way...think about how your WIFE, whether you say things like that to her or not, DOES feel that way about you ...and that feeling can actually be very quickly turned into a red-hot sexual feeling....
You, as the man who has given her two babies now, are the MOST incredible and sexy man on earth to her....whether that is ever expressed by her to you or not.
But you can awaken and provoke the feeling I described in my story in her, by placing the right words at the right time into her mind...
So I will be back with more because I have a somewhat similar story about myself and my fiance and I hope you will gleen some good stuff from the ideas within.
DQ
P.S. At the end of the night in my story, I left the club with my girlfriends, but before I left, I kissed the black man on his cheek and told him he had given me a special gift...he look bewildered as I ran out the door with my friends, and I never saw him again!
My fiance and I met just a tad too late in our lives to begin a new family, and although I am so happy to have an empty nest...part of me really feels incomplete for not having his baby. I really wish I could have his baby. There is something inside both of us that wishes we could combine our DNA and send forth into the future a "little us" that will be our legacy ... anyone who is a parent knows this feeling, right?
It wasn't in the cards for us and we have made the decision to just be happy about having grown kids and focus on ourselves.
I do recall one evening though, we were discussing what it would have been like to make a baby together, we were getting even a bit misty about the fact that this reality won't happen for us...
Then I stopped and thought about just how protective he would have been over me if I were big and pregnant with his child...
Just as a refresher of my story, my fiance is VERY protective. To the point that I think most people wouldn't like it and would feel smothered by it. I actually love and enjoy it and encourage it...it is somehow one of my love languages to be possesed by him and for him to show me his strong protectiveness toward me.
So anyway, I had begun imagining what it would be like to be with his child. I could imagine that he literally would not let anyone even speak to me if I were in that condition...(he barely lets anyone speak to me now! hee hee)
So I said it to him outloud, what I had been thinking. I said "wow honey, I bet you would be sooooo much MORE protective of me if I were big with your child".
A look of sudden awareness flashed across his face, as I could see him literally imagining my body big with his child, and himself as my protector.
And after a pause he said "woman, I would protect you like a FIERCE ANIMAL if you were carrying my child"...
After that we were so turned on we ran off and had very crazy wild sex, during which we had lots of talk about him giving me his baby during the act, and we both acted like fierce animals in heat. Whee! (sorry, got off track there....)
- - - - - - - -
So again, I hope you can gleen the same point from my other story...the point being that, as a woman, these are the MOST seductive, MOST spiritual, MOST sexual, MOST natural feelings I have ever had...the feeling of thinking that, were I carrying his child, he would literally kill any other animal that threatened me. I can't describe what happens within me when I'm thinking about him saying that. It still send chills up my spine to think about it (and it still makes me want to drag him into the bedroom and get his baby from him...in fact, after work that's just what I'm gonna do! well, minus the actual baby...)
- - - - -
S&A...I hope you can really think about how much power you really do have in your marriage, as the man who has given your wife her children. What does that actually mean to her, her animal self? How does that make her feel when she truly digs down deep inside of herself? I'm talking about actual feelings, not the surface feelings that are meant to protect us....deeper than that, TRUE feelings of an animalistic nature.
Can you think in these terms, and then think of some way you can draw that out of her? Think of the two stories I told you, and see if there is a time and place you can put the properly loaded statement into her mind....watch for opportunities for this...
The basic point of what you want to communciate to her is cave man speak:
Woman - you are mine - you carry my baby - I will protect you to the death - and give you more babies - oooga ooga.
----------
What do you think? There is more I can/could talk about but does this give you the gist?
.