Mulesqb still getting kicked in the a$$

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Mules,

As you know, I originally thought your wife was having an affair with your neighbor. I've changed my mind on that, but my opinion of their influence on her, and your family, is no less valid:

It's almost like she's addicted to their lifestyle, and she is rebelling against anything that stands in its way. They represent carefree, mindless escapism to her, and you and your children are viewed as anchors, holding her back and ruining all her fun.

Don't get me wrong, I still think she has had inappropriate feelings for HIM, and I think they've probably mutually even done some light, inappropriate THINGS (and I could even still be all wrong, and who knows, maybe it was a full-blown affair). But the important thing is that I am MORE CONVINCED THAN EVER (as it sounds like you are now, too) that these people are not the CAUSE of your problems, but they are certainly the immediate OBSTACLE TO SOLVING THEM.

Puppy

[Phoenixdeux]

I can do this and have done it. I'm at the point where I don't care what she does with them anymore (is that detachment). I'm just so tired of worrying about it. When I have done this - she says we are rude.

And being forced to spend every free minute (and now vacations also) with neighbors that you and your kids don't like isn't rude?

I talked it over with my wife. She had some other ideas that I thought were good.

First off, she's basically made a choice that the neighbors are more important to her then you and the kids. She knows how you feel and still proceeds as though your feelings don't matter in this. Her suggestion, and I don't know if you'd feel comfortable with this, is to wait until everyone is together and say to all three of them, "Listen, it's nice getting together, but I feel, and the kids feel, that it's too much. We need some space. Can we limit the time we spend together so we can all get a little more time with W?"

Her other suggestion, which may be less confrontational, is to tell her basically that you feel you need space from the neighbors. Can the two of you agree that they'll only come by maybe one afternoon/night per week? Lastly, she suggested that if your wife is resistant to any compromise that until she's ready to focus more on her marriage and/or kids that she:
1) Should either move to the spare bedroom (if you have one) and start living like a roommate (separate accounts and she pays rent and looks out for herself as far as food, etc)

2) She moves in with the neighbors
3) She moves to someplace else where she can visit to her heart content.

[mulesqb]

It's almost like she's addicted to their lifestyle, and she is rebelling against anything that stands in its way. They represent carefree, mindless escapism to her, and you and your children are viewed as anchors, holding her back and ruining all her fun.

Don't get me wrong, I still think she has had inappropriate feelings for HIM, and I think they've probably mutually even done some light, inappropriate THINGS (and I could even still be all wrong, and who knows, maybe it was a full-blown affair). But the important thing is that I am MORE CONVINCED THAN EVER (as it sounds like you are now, too) that these people are not the CAUSE of your problems, but they are certainly the immediate OBSTACLE TO SOLVING THEM.

Puppy - I am in 100% agreement. She has even used the word rebelling here and there. At one point she told me that I had my wild period (back in college - it was just typical stuff)already.

I also agree with you 100% about the H and the inappropriate feelings. I don't think it hit the physical side YET. I just always felt that the more I brought it up the closer she seemed to get to him. When I was accepting it cooled and was A LOT less flirtatious. She has told me that she is keeping my feelings in mind when we are around them. When I'm not home - who knows??

Your last sentence sums it all up for me right now. And what an obstacle it is. You can't say a bad word about these people. She defends them at all costs. Do you think I am stupid to just accept them? It seems to give us something in common in her mind. Right now I want to give the kids a break. Like I said before, it's not easy to have private conversations in our house so they know way more than they should.


She actually just called me at work for the first time in a few weeks. I can't tell you how good it is to hear her voice when I am at work. It used to be my favorite time every day. We used to make it a point to talk every day for 10 minutes or so. I miss that as much as anything else - she could make me smile no matter what was going on here.

When this is all over - no matter how it ends - i owe you guys a dinner - you don't know how much you have helped me personally.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Do you think I am stupid to just accept them? It seems to give us something in common in her mind.

Mules,

This is where "advice-giving" gets dicey. My opinion of your neighbors hasn't changed: if it were ME, and anyone, or any THING were this big of a threat to my family, I would deal with it forcefully, and let the chips fall where they may. I would have moved in with parents or in-laws months ago, and put my house on the market, if that's what it took to get her the hell outta there.

But that's me.

Puppy

[mulesqb]

Phoenix - Exactly - but she's so selfish right now (and readily admits that) that she doesn't see anyone else's perspective.

She has definitely made that choice but in the past few days (since her last counseling session) I've seen some small positive signs. I love your first suggestion - I just wonder if I have it in me right now to do that. It would be completely out of character for me. I'm not very confrontational but when I do get to that point she thinks I'm very intimidating. But on the 4th of July weekend with a few drinks - it is possible. I know my W would blow a gasket - and I'm not afraid of that anymore.

Your W's next suggestion is what our MC had us agree to. One night per weekend/week. Sometimes my W sticks to it, sometimes she doesn't - it usually depends on how we're getting along. This weekend - she had made plans with them for the 4th and then again on Sunday (it's the neighbor's W birthday). When I asked last night if we had any plans - she didn't mention Sunday. I think she would compromise right now. Last time she did move to down stairs, she lasted 5 days and then asked if it was ok to sleep in our bed again.

I love the part about moving in with the neighbors _ I actually suggested that in our big argument at MC when she was still going. #3 would be ideal - but she won't leave the house - how can I get her to do that. Honestly as much as i love her, I and the kids could use a break from the soap opera right now.

[mulesqb]

I know Puppy - I have thought long and hard about this. We have been moving in and out of separating and not separating. Then I didn't want the boys to have to live like that. Then I thought I would be pushing her right back in to their arms and where would I be then?? It's such a tough call. I DO WANT to move. I think I want to get to a point where she will agree to do it with me.

Also, my IC thinks that when she comes out (or IF) out of this, she will push away from them big time. I guess that would be the ideal time - but I also realize that I could lose her and never get that opportunity.

[indigo6]

Sorry... I don't agree with the house on the market, moving thing 'cuz where you live isn't the problem. I think the problem will "follow" you. Yes, it will resolve the logistics of things but it won't resolve her craving to have these people in her life. Let's say you do move and then your new neighbors are so wonderful and you're right back where you started or the present neighbors and/or your wife starting spending more time together because of the move and their addiction to each other?

I think your best plan is to try and compromise with her on time spent with them and if that doesn't work, take a harder stance. You are worried about losing her but it sounds like she's moving along that track herself by her not being "in the game" in your marriage.

I also think the "neighbors" aren't your primary problem. I think it is a side effect of your real problem and to me, that is the state of your marriage. I think it's more important to try and see if she'll work on the marriage more than she is and honestly, the other problems like the neighbors will resolve itself if she's willing to do the work. If she doesn't want to work on the marriage like a trooper, then I think you need to make some choices like a separation to show her that you're serious about this and if she doesn't want to work on it, then you don't really need her as a roommate. I'd like to ask her if she's your wife or your roommate and her answer would tell me a lot. If she's your wife, then she needs to work on things more and pull her part. If she's your roommate, then if I were you, as difficult as it is, I would ask her to leave... one option is to then put the house up for sale so that you both leave but seprately. Right now, she's calling the shots based on what I've read and you're kind of letting her but complaining about it. You have every right to stand up for yourself and what you want. Maybe she would have some newly-found respect for you given that.

[mulesqb]

Indigo - Thanks for a great perspective on things. You are right - I am letting her call the shots and then complaining about it.

That's an interesting point about whether she feels she is a W or a roommate. I think her answer would be different almost every week. In our last serious talk she said she is tired of feeling the way she does and needs "to do this". What she meant was work on things at home. I have seen a bit of a difference since she said that - but just a bit, not even close to where the kids and I would want. So I don't know whether to be patient and see if we get continued progress - or try and force the issue. She has only been to 2 sessions with her new IC so far.

I also am following a lot of the MLC advice I have found and try to agree with a lot of the things she says - even though I don't. I do set boundaries with time spent with the neighbors. As mentioned sometimes she follows, sometimes she doesn't. It seems like she wants to work on the marriage at her own pace. Last night I was down because I got some bad news about my Dad. She seemed genuinely concerned and kept asking me what was wrong. But then went out shopping with the neighbor's W. I am going to start being tougher with her. This morning she asked if we could all go to breakfast tomorrow, so i was happy about that.

I am setting a new goal for her and I to go out on a date. I would feel a lot better about things if we could do something alone. The thing is that I want her to ask. I asked last week and she said no so I will not do it again. She also keeps putting her legs into my stomach in bed for me to massage them. That used to be a precursor for things to follow. Now I don't feel confident enough or close enough to her to take it to the next level, even though I want to in the worst way.

She confided in me two days ago about some things between her and my S10. She was upset about her behavior with him. If I posted here what happened between them - you all would tell me to get her to a psychiatrist. But the problem is that the incident occurred when I was not home. If I was there I would have grabbed her and taken her to the psychiatric hospital I spoke about earlier in the thread. But I wasn't there and when she confided in me she was very composed and said that what she did was for effect and realizes it was a big mistake. I think that was a step back towards trusting me enough to confide. Not that I did anything to betray her trust, it's quite the contrary, she really needs to earn my trust. But in my research on MLC, I found that trust of the spouse from the MLCr is a major hurdle to get over. Hopefully we are starting to bridge the gap. I really think this is a big weekend for us. I want to see how she handles things with us and the neighbors and ME. I can bet right now that she will want me to be with her and the neighbors every night to have drinks. Part of me wants to do it and really try to have fun and see how she responds. But i know in the back of my head that while I am doing that our kids are home next door with S14 having to babysit for the other two, while all the time they would really like to be doing something with us.

As you can see this is extremely complicated and I think it requires extreme patience and no hasty decisions.

[indigo6]

My husband, Phoenixdeux, told me I was "harsh" in my response to you so I came back to read it again and saw you had written. I'm sorry if I came off harsh. I guess sometimes I tell it like I see it... right, Phoenix?!

i know this is all difficult. Difficult to go through, difficult to write about, difficult to read... we aren't there going through it. You are. You're right. There are no speedy decisions to make. You know what's best to do. Sometimes it all feels like trial and error and then something gives. The important - most important - thing here is that you're trying and you can be proud of yourself for that. You can only control you so you do the best you can and make the changes you need to make for you and be the best father you can be. I like the quote from your own father. Very wise and true indeed.

I wish you a good weekend. Good luck.

[mulesqb]

Indigo - I didn't take what you posted as being harsh at all. I actually think you are right on. Sometimes I wish I had made better, stronger decisions - maybe I would be in a better place with her right now.

I really think you are right about her and the state of our marriage. I think if she would work harder on things everything else would become manageable. Also, understand that part of my complaining is the jealousy I feel about the time that the neighbors get to spend with her. She's my W and I love her with all my heart - I want to spend time with her both alone and with our sons. When you are a family I don't think that is too much to ask. But I certainly recognize now more than ever her need to have friends of her own as well as activities. Based on what others have written about their MLC spouses, I guess I should consider myself somewhat lucky that she wants me to spend time with them with her.

Until Feb 5th I was never insecure about anything in my life. That speech changed everything - and I have been slowly working back to getting rid of those types of feelings.

Thanks for the kind words - you guys sound like you have an incredible R. I was there for a long time with my W. As long as I am coherent enough to remember what that felt like with her - I will keep battling to get back there with her. I also keep praying that this crisis will eventually produce a new and even better version of her.

Thanks so much for the thoughts!