I suppose the root question here, and the one potato needs to consider is to what degree and to what acceptable level their sex drives can be reconciled. It is a far shot from a 2-3 per day and 1 per month or less standard. That is an incrdible amount of ground to cover.
I think that a compromise level CAN be reached, provided that the couple fix all (or most) of the other problems in the marriage. As Michael J. Bader (author of Arousal) writes: Sexual arousal -- or more often, its decline -- is the first sign of problems in a relationship, the proverbial "canary in a coal mine."
In my own case, our sex-starved marriage was primarily a reflection of a basic gender difference: that most women need to feel a strong, loving, emotional connection before they feel the desire for a physical connection (i.e. an emotional connection is the pathway to sex). Take away that emotional connection for some reason, and the desire for physical intimacy is the first thing to go. She may even continue to masturbate when you aren't around to satisfy herself, but without that emotional connection, and especially if your relationship is strained, your touch may repulse her. At one point, my connection to my wife had deteriorated to the point that she claimed she could go the rest of her life without sex.
As a male, your wiring is, in general, completely the opposite: most men need to have an intimate physical connection before they feel the desire for a strong emotional connection (i.e. sex is the pathway to an emotional connection). It took more than 20 years, but my wife now fully understands that I don't really feel loved, nor can I fully express my love for her without that physical connection.
Even when we are feeling angry and distant from our wives (avoiding an emotional connection), men can feel the desire for sex, sometimes to an even higher degree than previously, because we are yearning to repair that connection to our wives and reestablish our loving feelings. At the same time, our wives are completely befuddled by this physical desire of ours, because they are reacting in quite the opposite fashion to the strained marital relationship: no emotional connection, no desire for sex. So the lack of sex gets added to the list of grievances, and things spiral even further downhill.
Now, I'm speaking pretty generically here, and to my own case in particular, but I've witnessed that a woman's desire for sex can undergo a dramatic upswing IF the other aspects of the marriage relationship begin to get fixed. Trust has to be rebuilt, old grievances addressed, and a strong emotional connection reestablished, BUT it can be done -- my wife and are in the process of doing it. It's not easy (at all), and it takes time, patience, and a lot of love and understanding on the part of both partners, but, as I've said before, if both partners share the responsibility for the damage, and then set about repairing it, there are good chances for success.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Last edited by Bagheera; 05/09/0801:04 AM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
In my own case, our sex-starved marriage was primarily a reflection of a basic gender difference: that most women need to feel a strong, loving, emotional connection before they feel the desire for a physical connection (i.e. an emotional connection is the pathway to sex). Take away that emotional connection for some reason, and the desire for physical intimacy is the first thing to go. She may even continue to masturbate when you aren't around to satisfy herself, but without that emotional connection, and especially if your relationship is strained, your touch may repulse her. At one point, my connection to my wife had deteriorated to the point that she claimed she could go the rest of her life without sex.
As a male, your wiring is, in general, completely the opposite: most men need to have an intimate physical connection before they feel the desire for a strong emotional connection (i.e. sex is the pathway to an emotional connection). It took more than 20 years, but my wife now fully understands that I don't really feel loved, nor can I fully express my love for her without that physical connection.
I'm not like most other men my age. I'm very affectionate towards my wife and make sure she feels loved at all times. I'm sure if anyone were to ask her, she would say she has never felt unloved. Maybe that has made her too confident, that the love will never go away, so she doesn't have to put any effort into the relationship. The funny thing is, no matter what is going on, it has no impact on her sex drive...it is still exceptionally low.
Don't get me wrong...I very much appreciate the advise. Maybe there are more issues in our marriage than she is talking about...she is not the best at communication, obviously.
I'm not like most other men my age. I'm very affectionate towards my wife and make sure she feels loved at all times. I'm sure if anyone were to ask her, she would say she has never felt unloved. Maybe that has made her too confident, that the love will never go away, so she doesn't have to put any effort into the relationship.
There is another hypothesis you can consider here too, Potato. That is, if you are too much of a Mr. Nice Guy, too much of a "door mat," you can actually turn your wife off sexually by not being 'strong,' independent, or masculine enough. In other words, women are attracted to and turned on by masculinity in the same way that men are attracted to and turned on by femininity.
EDITED--ADVERTISING NOT ALLOWED
This was not, however, the path the I had to walk, so I'll let Strong & Alive or Puppy Dog Tails tell you more about it, and see if the situation is more fitting to yours.
Take care,
Bagheera
Last edited by sgctxok; 05/19/0810:34 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I will write a proper post over the weekend when I have more time. In the meantime read through what I previously said to Tyguy and Tiredofpain - they were in different situations, but I think there were some common themes running through (just click on my name and you will be able to access all my previous posts). What I will say at this stage is that I think both you and your wife have issues, such that at the moment you are neither of you getting the best out of the other. Have a think about the questions I've posed for other guys on this board, and to what extent your own answers to the same questions may give you some insight into your current situation. I will add some specific observations later on this weekend. Stay cool,
Strong&Alive
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
Okay, Potato - I know this is the sex-starved forum, but it seems to me you and everybody else are missing the point by focusing on the sex.
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I think the only reason we had sex this month was because it was my birthday, and she didn't get me a gift.
What kind of woman doesn't buy her husband a birthday present, especially in the first years of marriage???????
This certainly makes me think there are issues here deeper than sex. Reminds me of my first year of marriage, when H was "too busy" to remember Valentine's Day. Granted, we WERE both very busy as medical students working insane hours - so I made all kinds of excuses why he was too busy to write me a love note or pick me a flower from the neighbor's yard. Later I learned the sad truth, he was mooning over an ex-girlfriend he'd slept with the night before our wedding.
As for your wife's suicide attempts - DO NOT take them lightly. If she's depressed enough to consider suicide or say the words, she NEEDS HELP. Depression (and, ironically, anti-depressant medication) cuts libido. If you think she's seriously depressed or unhinged, get her to some help.
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I'm sure if anyone were to ask her, she would say she has never felt unloved.
Not so fast there, buddy. I'm pretty sure she felt unloved when she found out you were using porn. Maybe her simmering resentment over this is why she didn't buy you a birthday present? Or maybe she is a video game addict.
Whatever it is - I think your marital problems go way beyond sex. DO NOT make a baby with this woman until you have gotten this all worked out. INSIST on some GOOD marriage counseling (look carefully - bad counseling is worse than none).
I have been thinking about your post a lot too. I want to give you some input to have a think on to see if it helps.
One, OK so you're newlyweds but that doesn't mean no problems. A lot of Ms fail within the first 5 years, and I for one think it's excellent that you have come here NOW to do something about it and not a year down the line when maybe you've met someone else and life's a mess. Being a WA (walk away) is no picnic. Well done for wanting to do something now, it shows you are comitted and I hope you're prepared to put the work in, this may be a long haul. Real change takes a LONG time, quick changes are usualy superficial and don't last.
Reading list - I would read "The Divorce Remedy" even though you don't want a D, it has some excellent stategies for dealing with a partner who won't change. I'd also read "Men are from mars..." and "The Sex Starved Marriage". Reading these will give you some ACTION to focus on. I can apprecaite it must be really frustrating that you want to do something to improve your M, and your W's answers are a non-commital "I don't know". It looks as if talk isnt' working (it rarely does, sigh)
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Now I'm not a bad lover. I've had many partners, and they have all said I'm very good. I am attentive. I am caring. I make sure that my partner orgasms before I do. Hell, I even WANT to cuddle afterwards. But when someone doesn't want to have sex with you and hurries you along when you do, it really is a blow to your ego.
She also demands that I not view porn. She claims it is degrading and that it makes her self-conscious. She took some pictures of herself naked, and insists I use those for any self gratification. In her head, I think she believes that that will serve as a substitute for sex.
Two things here - have you told your W you have had many lovers and no complaints? If you have, this could have really upset her. She may feel she's being compared and doesn't measure up. This can KILL a woman's sexual desire. OK, it's important to accept that your H or W will have had partners before you (not always, but in most cases) but to hear about them can be crushing. I hate to hear of my H's ex's. Of course, mentioned by name or in passing (eg, "I was going out with so-snd-so at the time, blah blah, rest of story") is fine, but DETAILS - no. It's nothing to do with me and H so i don't want to hear about it.
Obviously she knows about the porn too. I know to you it has no emotional connection, but to her it again could be crushing, like she's being compared and doesn't measure up. Again, for me if my H takes a shine to anyone on TV etc, I don't want to hear about it. Of course he WILL see other girls he likes the look of, and looking is fine, but I just don't want to discuss it with him.
If she's "the little Princess" and you're treating her so well, showing her so much love, it may be confusing to her if you use porn. In my mind, my H loves me and therefore if he were viewing porn or had an attachment to someone famous it would hurt A LOT because it would mean that in the attractiveness stakes I obviously didn't measure up. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that's the way **I** view it and maybe your W feels similar.
When my H and I started dating, he had a fixation on a TV personality. He would buy any magazine with her in, record her TV shows, talk about her in glowing terms in front of me. It HURT LIKE HELL. My feeling was "I'm not good enough". He would then tell me he loved me, and I would not believe this as his actions to me didn't speak love.
The sad thing about sex too is the more you persue, the more pressure goes onto the LD person and it can suffocate them. This could be why she's into the "hurry up" mode (which I appreciate will hurt you like hell). So now you're in a situation where she's completely closed off to having sex. How would you feel about backing off completely to initiating sex at all for a few months? I'm thinking she has some other issues here (and it's hard to fathom what they are when all she says is "I don't know") so in that time you work on THOSE with the pressure to perform off her.
For example - a W feels she does all the housework with little help from her H (I'm not saying this is you, this is just for illustration). Her H then wants to have sex to feel close to her. She feels tired, overworked and sex then becomes another item on the "to do" list. Not nice for anyone. So the H realises this, packs his W off to a spa for the day, goes round tidying the house, cooks a nice dinner with candles, so when she comes home the house is clean and he's there waiting for her. her "to do" list has shrunk greatly, she can really relax and maybe then they ML.
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And EVERYTHING is about her in our relationship...we have to eat what she wants, watch what she wants, do what she wants, at all times. If I want to watch something and she isn't in the mood for it at the moment, she'll get up and leave....but I'm not allowed to do the same thing. I am a giving person, but I can't help but feel she is taking advantage of that and feeding her selfishness.
Now this sounds very much like my M used to be before the bomb. My H is a very giving person who gets happiness from making me happy. A noble thing, but not always very healthy. He was a pushover. I knew I could always get my own way, and what did I win? A H in MLC who walked out. Great prize! (He's back now, all sorted by the way).
You seem to be building up a lot of resentment while being very passive. This could lead to you flipping into agressive very quickly. Extremes are no good, life is ideal when it's balanced. Maybe you need to be more assertive? Assertive is good, it stands its ground calmly. It doesn't shout, demand, beg or cry. It states its desires calmly but firmly.
If there is something she wants to watch on TV and you don't, there is NOTHING wrong with you going off to do something else. It's silly for her to deamnd you watch it with her. She can ASK, yes, but not demand. If you were to be assertive you would state that you didn't want to watch the TV and if she got upset say "I'm sorry you're upset, but I don't want to watch TV". If she gets pouty about that she has some real issues to deal with. You cannot live your life by her rules. A healthy R includes compromise. I like to look on a healthy R as two people bound together with a long piece of elastic. They can wander away from each other but are still tied and will come back together again. Couples don't need to do everything togther all the time. Sometimes my H goes out with his friends and I don't fancy it, sometimes vice versa. It's important to have some time out from each other.
If she's being very clingy one you, and threats to kill herself if you leave would indicate that, then this doesn't sound good. One cannot DEPEND so heavily on another. I used to be very dependent on my H, now I have realised I don't NEED him in my life but I WANT him there. If he were to leave tomorrow of course I'd be upset but I know in time I would be just fine, that I would meet someone else because I am a lovely and loving person. I used to think "thank God I've found someone who will put up with me". Now I have enough self esteem to realise no-one has to "put up with me" because I'm not that bad. maybe your W struggles with low self esteem?
OK, this has been a really long post, congrats if you've got to the end. It's food for thought - I may be right, I may be way off the mark. Use what you like and discard what doesn't fit. But keep posting. I believe this can be fixed, but it's going to take a lot of time and a great deal of patience from you.
Take it easy
JJ
Bomb (ILYBINILWY, don't want to be married)Sept05 Seperated Sept/Oct 05 Oct 06 - H recomitted July 11 - I am now a WAW.
Make sure that YOU use birth control that only YOU have access to.
Have another look at the relationship with the guy before you. Do NOT ask her about it, check it out and make sure it is really dead for yourself.
Does your wife work?
NOPkins
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
One other thing you might want to consider is it might physiological in nature. She could be Hypothyroid. It can make them feel very bad and they don't know why. It also reeks havoc on the sex drive. My wife suffered from this for a couple of years before we figured it out. I like you have always been attentive and it hurts your feelings when coutless advances are turned down. My weeks used to be something like this:
I would try to initiate...I would here "in the morning" In the morning I would try....I would here "tonight"
This could go on several days. It had such a large impact on her that when she started to get her thyroid straightened out, we had sex and I commented that that was good and then I figured it out....she actually moved during it.
Seriously, if you love her talk to her, and check out some possible physical reasons for it.
TwinDad Me 39, W 36, M 11 W - MLC, WAW???? 2 Kids B/G 3 YRS Old Start of the Long and Bumpy Road..... On the verge of piecing.....a new beginning
I'm not like most other men my age. I'm very affectionate towards my wife and make sure she feels loved at all times. I'm sure if anyone were to ask her, she would say she has never felt unloved. Maybe that has made her too confident, that the love will never go away, so she doesn't have to put any effort into the relationship. The funny thing is, no matter what is going on, it has no impact on her sex drive...it is still exceptionally low.
If she were here, would she say something like this?
Quote:
I'm not like most other women my age. I'm very affectionate towards my husband and make sure he feels loved at all times. I'm sure if anyone were to ask him, he would say he has never felt unloved. . . . I even took naked pictures of myself for him to have when he couldn't have me! How many women woudl do that? The funny thing is, no matter what is going on, it has no impact on his sex drive... he never stops pestering me to give him sex no matter what.
If she doesn't understand that you feel unloved (and I'll bet you $100 she doesn't) then it's probably dangerous for you to assume she's happy, right?
I haven't been quite where you are, but I remember being a newlywed trying to figure out why I couldn't interest my wife in sex. We dated for four years before we got married (we met in college) and honestly, we were having problems with sex before we got married. But I couldn't imagine life without her, and after all, we were living in separate places--for the last six months before we got married, she was at home student teaching and I was at school 200 miles away. There wasn't much chance of sex, especially since when we did get to visit, I usually had to drive to her parents' house, which is not a sexy place no matter what they show in the movies, kids.
I actually brought up the issue of sex before we got married. I told her I wanted to be married to her for 50 years, but I wanted to be making love in that 50th year. She told me she thought things would be better when we had our own place to live and "all the pressure of school and the wedding are over" (yes, we were dumb kids) but she couldn't promise me anything. I thought it over and decided that was good enough.
Now I'm 8 years into a sex-starved marriage with three kids. I'm not sure what I think of that early conversation. Maybe I should have left her, but I've had a good marriage, really. When you're not getting any, you think making love is more important than anything else. It's very important, but there are other things too.
You, however, sound deeply unhappy. Give her the SSM book and tell her you NEED her to read it. It's important to you, even if it doesn't make sense. Show her this thread, too. Anything to wake her up before you have ten more years' worth of frustration and anger, because let me tell you, my anger is KILLING my attempt to be rational and fix my SSM. It's just about impossible to be reasonable when you've got a catalog of a thousand things your spouse has done wrong over the years playing in your head--and it's that much worse for her, too, if you wait, because she probably has no idea how you feel (even though you told her--it's not fair, but it's real) and when you do get through to her, she's going to feel shocked and guilty. If the book and this forum had been around when I was in my first year of marriage, I really think I'd be in a different marriage today.
