We are on a downward spiral

[Bagheera]

Good to hear from you again, Near;

I do the daily or twice daily phone calls with the wife. We have always done this since we were first married.

As I've observed before, you're starting from a better place, i.e. you have a better friendship with your wife, than I did with mine a year ago. When I first started my 'marriage recovery project,' my wife and I lived completely separate lives, and only called and talked during the work day if we needed to coordinate on something (that is, "business" calls only).

The daily de-brief for us could be improved a bit. The wife is usually trying to have supper hit the table as I walk through the door so the kids have some time to digest etc before bed. This would probably be a good place to start.

To steal a phrase from another of my favorite relationship authors, John Gottman, this is all about keeping a current "love map" of your spouse; staying in frequent, in-depth contact; and constantly refreshing your close friendship with her.

Week day evenings. Again, this is probably a good one for us to work harder on. Due to our schedules we usually have between 30-45 minutes after the kids go down before we do. BUT, this is something I can change about our time spent.

We still have a hard time turning this one into a habit; it seems to fall off the calendar under the slightest bit of life-pressure. After I mentioned it to you, I had to poke my wife into a Yahtzee game the next night, so that I wouldn't feel like a hypocrite.

Dates. Tough subject. Used to do, now can't afford. We are generally out of money within a week of payday due to extreme debt load from business and medical. This is going to sound shallow, but after multiple years of dating and my wife figuring out a way to be asleep by the time I drop off the sitter (including when times were better) this will be low on my list. I realize sex should not be the goal, but by God it sometimes should be the result!

I hear ya' Near. On the way home from a nice date, I still have a tendency to get all quiet and sullen, dreading how our return home is going to go (or not go, as it were). Not exactly the right attitude to have for turning a woman on, even if she might have been inclined towards it (can you say, "self-sabotage"?). At the same time, a regular expectation of sex after a date doesn't work either. Even though my own wife is trying very hard now to meet my desires (dare I use the word needs?), just the slightest bit of perceived pressure is enough to shut her down. As the HD partner, it is a fine, fine line that you walk --> make that a razor's edge.

Regular get aways. We have done this a few times. Often they were pretty good and resulted in three of three kids. I will not invest time or money on this until I begin to see a shift in her and our money situation. I am sorry, this one is mostly about sex. There is no other reason to get a hotel room in the same city where you live. Call me shallow, but I can stay at home and talk!

As I mentioned, we haven't incorporated this one yet either, and you've nailed one of the reasons why not. The getaway implies an expectation of passion and romance, which amounts to pressure on my wife again. When I reach the state myself where I can relax and just go with an expectation of a general good time, letting things happen as they will, then I might see if we can try it.

This is a corny sounding metaphor, but I've learned to liken trying to awaken the sensual woman within my wife to trying to catch a bird. The more you scream and chase after it, the more it will fly away. The only way to catch it is to relax and gently coax it into your hand. Easier said than done, especially when you're angry and frustrated at the bird to begin with (and it's all angry with you).

I'm glad to see you thinking about trying to get the ball rolling again -- making the first move(s) is the hardest part, especially if you've tried and failed before. And even after you've had that break-through discussion, the one where she really "gets it" and is willing to work toward a significantly improved relationship with you, the process remains one of two steps forward and one step back. I spent two nights on the couch (or in my 'cave') just this week, until my wife and I were able to regroup and reconnect. first emotionally, then physically. However, our disconnect-dips are slowly growing shallower and less frequent, and the overall trend is positive -- something that I have to consciously remind myself of when I'm sleeping on that silly couch.

The final point is, I'm no expert on this topic, by far, so take my advice and suggestions with an ample helping of salt. I'm just a (wordy) fellow traveler on the same road, who still finds himself in the ditch again once in a while.

Take care, and best of luck to you,

Bagheera

[near the end]

Bagheera,
Thanks for the advice. This may or may not be right, but my perspective is to try and rebuild a frindship/ relationship with my wife at this point with no expectations of the romantic. Maybe I can awake the inner sensuous woman (lot of optimism here!) by completely ignoring that bird!
About the dates though, it wasn't just that we sometimes didn't have sex after a date, it was always! I can not recall any dates including birthdays or anniversaries where we actually consumated.

[Bagheera]

This may or may not be right, but my perspective is to try and rebuild a frindship/ relationship with my wife at this point with no expectations of the romantic.

I'll recommend another book to you: John Gottman's Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. The emphasis in it is (re)building and maintaining a close friendship, and learning to handle conflict/difference in a non-destructive manner to your relationship.

About the dates though, it wasn't just that we sometimes didn't have sex after a date, it was always! I can not recall any dates including birthdays or anniversaries where we actually consumated.

Last summer, our older two children did the math, and figured out that Dad (with some help from Mom) really likes to celebrate holidays. The two oldest offspring trace back to anniversaries, one of the younger to my birthday, and the last to Valentine's Day. My kinesthetic MO reveals itself again....

It does sound like, however, that your wife is extremely sensitive to any pressure to "perform" or respond to you. If there is an expectation hanging there in the air, it's nearly certain to get swatted down. It also sounds like it's hard for her to separate herself from the demands of day-to-day living, and it has taken a physical separation from the house & kids (going on a getaway) for her to be able to disconnect from "Mommy-mode" and relax and enjoy herself with you. These are both issues that she will eventually have to deal with, with a LOT of patience from you. But for now, I like the friendship building approach you're taking.

Best regards,

Bagheera

[near the end]

I really HATE to celebrate holidays. Probably just due to financial pressures. The ones I believe would be obvious and expected romantic ones:
Anniversary
My birthday
Valentines
She would most like to not celebrate hers that way!

That's not too much to ask is it?

I will look for that book this weekend. Wife has a half marathon out of town and I have the kids.

[MichiganMan]

Luckily, the positive feedback-loop nature of marriage means that, eventually, your wife will be forced to respond positively to your positive efforts, perhaps after an initial bout of skepticism about whether you really mean it, and aren't just "trying to get laid."

IMO, you have hit upon a weak link of the SSM approach. Despite the sincere positive efforts on the part of the suffering HD partner, there simply is no guarantee that the LD partner will ever respond. None. It is entirely possible that those efforts will result in nothing more than creating a somewhat spoiled LD spouse who still has no desire for sex.

I read the Rosbergs' book also, and the same flaw is contained within it. Getting a positive response from the LD partner is not, as the Rosbergs seemed to suggest, a sure thing, regardless of what the HD partner does. Actually, the Rosbergs take it a step further, by ruling out the option of divorce completely, regardless of how hopelessly intractible the situation is.

NTE, I profoundly sympathize with you, you've brought back some painful memories for me. I hated holidays too! And also your wife's description of a perfect romantic evening! Classic.

Your situation was worse than mine, in that I had no children with my LD spouse, nor money problems. But the physical aspects, my wife's behavior, how she viewed my desires for sexuality, etc. etc. etc. were identical. I after several years of effort, I finally concluded that she was LD to ND to the core, and that nothing was going to change that. The D should be final in about 6 weeks. It's still painful, and I doubt if I would have had the strength to do it if we had kids.

I have no answers for you, my friend, only a prayer for God to grant you strength - and maybe a miracle.

[Bagheera]

IMO, you have hit upon a weak link of the SSM approach. Despite the sincere positive efforts on the part of the suffering HD partner, there simply is no guarantee that the LD partner will ever respond. None.

Rather than use the term "weak link," I would simply call it an inherently optimistic approach. Every couple and every marriage history is different, and I agree with you that there are situations where the marriage may not be salvageable, at least not in a fashion where both partners end up happy. I do, however, believe strongly that if both partners are willing to work hard to save their marriage, they will most likely be able to do so. If only one partner is putting in the effort, then the initial goal is to wake the other partner up enough to get them on board --> to break through their resistance and resentment barriers enough to rekindle some hope in both partners.

When I started my own efforts at recovering my marriage, I too started out with no guarantees that I would be able to achieve a break-through with my wife and get her to work with me. But I decided that I loved her enough, and that I valued my marriage enough to put forth every effort, even if it turned out to be all one-sided. If that had been the case, we'd be in the process of splitting our assets right now, as the school year comes to a close and it's easy to relocate the kids over the summer. However, I began to see signs of positive change within just a few weeks of hard, sincere work at winning my wife back: at least in my case, Michele and the Rosbergs' where shown to be on the right track. My wife and I are happier now than we have been in most of our 22 years together, and we have only just started walking down the path to recovery together. It's still rough for both of us sometimes, we stumble and regress now and again, but I'm confident that over the next year or so, we can be fully 'recovered,' as long as we stick with it.

I'm sorry that your own situation did not work out, MichiganMan. You're right: there are no guarantees. But just because your own situation did not work out, does not mean that others cannot succeed -- every marriage is different. And I think every marriage is worth the effort to save, even if it begins with only one partner being "big enough" (to quote Dance Queen) to step up to the plate and try.

Take care,

Bagheera

[near the end]

Thanks for the input. I also worry about producing a "spoiled LD wife". I suppose I will continue to work on this and see how well my wife responds to the other areas. I still do not want to take the risk involving sex at this point.

[shmagic]

I wonder if maybe your W doesn't enjoy penetrative sex...since her first M also ended partly because of lack of SL.

Lets assume she doesn't enjoy penetration for whatever reasons...never has an orgasm...think of it from her POV if you can..namely if she gets zero pleasure why would she WANT to have sex????

If you never had sex prior to the M this is a distinct possibility.

So NOTHING you do is going to make the slightest difference unless she admits to you that SHE is the one with the problem IMO.

What about affection....is she affectionate towards you or did that end with the M too.

I mean kissing..and general forpelay pre M maybe it was good...but then she switched off when it came to more...to actual penetration.

Unless she was totally aroused and that can take a long time for some women .....not just a quick fumble a few kisses and away you go like they show on some porn movies.

Lets say you ask her what HER expectations of what a M should be only most people would agree that sex is part of M even LD spouses.

Ask her WHO you are expected to have sex with...since SHE is your W. If she argues just make the same point again...who are you supposed to have sex with unless you had an A which you don't want to do.

Unless you spell it out to her that your wishes are of equal importance what is going to change for YOU.... nothing.

shmagic

[near the end]

shmagic,
Interesting line of thought. I do not claim to be the world's best lover, but I will say that she does have an orgasm every time that we take the time to have sex. I am very sure that she is not faking due to the fact that she will complain bitterly and get very frustrated if she does not. Oddly enough, she is less interested in foreplay. She does not kiss and will do precious little else. All foreplay is devoted to me arousing her, she does not touch me at all. I would be interested to hear opinions on that!
Her opinion on my sex drive and who I a supposed to have sex with falls right back to her belief that I am abnormal in my drives and that I should be satisfied with whatever comes my way. According to her, I am not under supplied.

[Bagheera]

All foreplay is devoted to me arousing her, she does not touch me at all. I would be interested to hear opinions on that!

Gracious, Near -- it hurts me just to read this. You have my sincere sympathy (and empathy), and I honestly can't see how you've been able to stay with the relationship as long as you have.

I've thought from the beginning that your wife needs some serious therapy: couples, but in particular, sex therapy. She seems to be stuck in a "good Christian girls don't" mode, and has no clue how utterly important a good, healthy sexual relationship is to having a good, healthy marital relationship.

The problem you face, of course, is how to persuade her to go to counseling with you. You can use the Carrot, Stick, or some combination of the two, but she's going to have to realize that as soon as the last kid leaves the house, your marriage is done, if, IF you can stick it out that long. I thought that I could, and my plan was to end the marriage when my own last kid left the house, but middle age and an MLC changed my own mind on that issue.

I don't know what it will take to wake her up and get her to work with you: it's sort of what we've been talking about all along in this thread. I remember all to well the level of frustration, anger, and hopelessness you are experiencing, with the most painful part being the knowledge that the person who is supposed to understand you better than anyone else can take something which to you is sacred, deeply emotional, and an expression of your heartfelt love for her, and rub it in your face: calling it a sinful, perverted, animalistic urge. On her current course, she won't understand the error of this attitude until it is too late, if then.

Take care, my friend.

Bagheera