The other night when she sat chatting for hours with another guy I told her again that dating other guys before we were divorced was completely unacceptable, even if it was in cyberspace. Of course she told me that since she was divorcing me it was none of my business and I should bugger off. She's not my W anymore and I have no claim over her and that is that.
So what did you DO about that? You laid out a supposed "boundary" for her, and yet there was no consequence for her violating it. That makes it not a boundary at all; more like a "wish", as in "I wish you wouldn't . . . "
I have not read your thread, but in answer to what you said in your post here......LBS should not act like a victim! They should have self-respect. That is very important. In fact, that is what the DR book teaches in MHO. Don't cry, beg, plead, cling....etc. That is showing lack of self-respect! Act like a man...GAL, move on, make self-improvements. There is nothing about that that says you are being a victim. Or, you can show her the door, slam it shut forever and forget her. That is up to the individual. But I think what Michelle has tried to do is teach people how the WAS thinks.....which is very hard to do. H's are floored to find their WAW say and act out the behavior that they do and every thing seems to put pressure on the WAW and backfires on the LBH. So, this board, Michelle's books and the principles that are passed along here are not to be misunderstood. A man is not to lie down and be a door mat, nor is a woman to take abuse.....every person is to keep their self-respect and not allow anyone to walk all over them. However, in most case (not counting those of abusive R's) we learn to have a lot more patient than we thought we had. We find we can forgive more than we thought we could. We discover that there is a lot of self-improvement we need to work on to become more attractive to our spouse, b/c truth be know....for the most of us....we have backslid into a state of being too comfortable and perhaps taking our spouse for granted too much.
As far as MLC.....that is something that is talked about a lot on this board...and true MLC is almost like a disease and it takes time to get over it. Most cases involve another person and it produces a lot of pain. But let me say something that I have tried to explain before.....nobody gets off completely free. The WAS has their share of pain. sorrow, disappointments, guilt and regrets. They may not let their spouse know it and in fact probably try to act as if they are on cloud nine with their "new life"......but it seldom is the complete truth and it very seldom works out the way they fantasized about it.
Don't know that that helps any, but hope it did just a bit.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I think it has been said here before-- but think about what your W is getting from the OA-- then try to fill that need--its not perfect, but it might help-- and if you want your M, you do need to stop snooping- I am an admitted snoop-aholic! But there was something in one of Michelle's articles that made my ears perk up- since you can't go to your spouse with the information you get from snooping, it hurts you more than it helps- I find this soooo true-- because it usually just causes more damage if you call them out about the info you found snooping--but it is HARD, especially when you have found out about PA this way. But one of the fundamentals that you will have to work on if you work on your M is trust, for now just ACT "as if" you trust her- who knows, maybe one day you really will!
My H talks to ex-gf by email every couple of months- I have snooped and found that their convo's are not inappropriate- in fact they're rather boring- however, he never tells me anything about them, and gets angry if I ask (cause then he knows I snooped)-- in his eyes, he doesn't have to tell me every time he talks to a friend-- and these are convos that they could easily have in front of me-- so maybe some people just want to know that you can give them that space-- just food for thought-
My H talks to ex-gf by email every couple of months- I have snooped and found that their convo's are not inappropriate- in fact they're rather boring- however, he never tells me anything about them, and gets angry if I ask (cause then he knows I snooped)-- in his eyes, he doesn't have to tell me every time he talks to a friend-- and these are convos that they could easily have in front of me-- so maybe some people just want to know that you can give them that space-- just food for thought-
I'm sorry, Confused, but that just seems naive to me. Why would we want to provide a wayward spouse with "space," when they're cheating on us? To build some sort of unilateral-disarmament "trust"?
Snooping has its place, IF you can handle it. It can help you understand what you're dealing with initially. It can confirm contact when your spouse has promised you NO contact, and your personal boundary is at stake. It can help you protect your finances, and your kids.
I just don't understand this universal orthodoxy of "all snooping is bad" that I read on this forum. It seems to be the only infidelity forum where this is preached so universally.
She is still your wife, and until the divorce is finalized, I would tell her that it is a personal boundary for you for her to carry on her sexual dalliances from inside of your home. If she wants, she can go outside in the rain and have phone sex on her cellphone while standing in the yard.
But that's just me. I'm goofy that way.
Puppy
Ok, that cracked me up. That's how I think. I, sadly, would take it a step further and lock the door behind him.
I haven't read the whole thread, but am I to understand that your W still lives in your home and is carrying on like this, waiting for the divorce to be final? See, I don't know and I apologize if this is contradictory to DBing (because I don't have the book yet), but I'm thinking a little tough love is in order. She's living in your home, "connecting" with OM and that's ok? When my husband moved back in while he was waiting to leave for school, I had a rule: nobody else while we are under the same roof. Well, one night, it "appeared" that he was going on a date so when he left, I packed his uniform, toiletries, etc (ok, after I cleaned the toilet with his toothbrush. bad, I know), put them on the front porch and left a note saying that was unacceptable and he could find somewhere else to sleep. He was drunk when he came home, I asked him to leave (I could see a huge fight about to happen because I was really mad) and he refused. I have the "luxury" of being able to call the MP's because we live on Post. So I called to have them remove him because I thought it best to be proactive rather than reactive. God knows that I was exercising great restraint, trying not to explode. I tried to stay calm and enforce my boundaries. He violated them and I took action.
Anyway, sorry, that was long. My point is: what does DR say about them living with you and still being with OP? I don't think I could do that. I know me and I, for sure, would hurt a soldier for disrespecting me like that. Our home is our sanctuary and refuge. It's where we raise and nurture our children. My children need me to be on top of my game. If I'm stressing from the rejection and emotional turmoil that situation produces, I can't be all they need for me to be. If my H wants to violate the marriage covenant and destroy this family, he's not going to do it inside my home. His "blood" is on his own head.
I agree with PDT, because otherwise you might be sending the signal, I am a doormat, you can walk on me, cheat on me and I am okay with it. Of course your not, but she might be receiving that message. Don't be a doormat, firm but fair boundaries. You can save your relationship without allowing whatever she wants at least in your presence.
Married:10 years D final 8/28/08 10 minutes is all it took Life goes on and DB was no small part in growing from the Divorce!
The other night when she sat chatting for hours with another guy I told her again that dating other guys before we were divorced was completely unacceptable, even if it was in cyberspace. Of course she told me that since she was divorcing me it was none of my business and I should bugger off. She's not my W anymore and I have no claim over her and that is that.
So what did you DO about that? You laid out a supposed "boundary" for her, and yet there was no consequence for her violating it. That makes it not a boundary at all; more like a "wish", as in "I wish you wouldn't . . . "
What am I supposed to do? Tell her to move out? She'll refuse to go without the kids. The judge will have to decide who gets the kids. Tell her I'll move out? She'll say HALLELUYA! Thats exactly what she wants. Scream and shout? Doesn't work, it makes matters worse. I did not scream or shout but I did start a sort of subdued argument, and that ended bad enough.
I must just say, I think I did not present the facts very well. Her EA ended after I contacted the guy. The chap she had the chat with the other night as been there all along, frome her Myspace days but she never connected much to him. The other night was the first time I am aware of that she had such a long talk with him. I called it "Dating" because even if you are not involved yet it seems that the aim of it is to find someone to get involved with. Like going on a date with someone you do not know very well in order to see if it could lead somewhere.
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
I'm sorry, Confused, but that just seems naive to me. Why would we want to provide a wayward spouse with "space," when they're cheating on us?
Hi Pups
Again you are right, except if you want to save your marriage. EVERYTHING about DBing is counter intuitive. That's why most people get it wrong on their own, I think. I definitely got it wrong in a BIG way.
When you are abandoned, the normal reaction to the trauma includes rage (you start fighting with your WAS) and "symbiotic regression" which means you become pathologically dependent on your WAS, like a baby is dependent on his mother (So you start begging, being clingy and needy, and you latch onto your WAS like an octopus.)(See my previous post on the subject)
Your WAS's reaction is "I FEEL TRAPPED. I MUST OUT" It is natural. The more you rage and regress, the faster they run to get out.
So, to "give them space" does not mean to give them a licence to adultery, it simply means you DON'T fight and you DON'T cling. Someone here called it "Loving Detachment".
God I wish I knew this a year ago...
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I just don't understand this universal orthodoxy of "all snooping is bad" that I read on this forum. It seems to be the only infidelity forum where this is preached so universally.
Puppy
I expect snooping is universally bad because people are universally unable to handle it in such a way that you don't start raging and clinging. I know I am.
The other thing about snooping is that it is highly addictive, like gambling. It becomes an all consuming obsession. This I know from own bitter experience. I used to log onto Myspace and Facebook from my cellphone at all hours of the day and night to see what W was up to. Like any addiction it is destructive, you don't have energy to do anything else, and there is absolutely no question of GAL.
So, if you can snoop and keep your cool and not get addicted, I suppose you should do it.
Having said that, I am also convinced that you ABSOLUTELY need to know if your spouse is unfaithful. I may be wrong on this.
So I suppose a small amount of snooping is essential.
Do I sound confused? Maybe it is because I am...
Me 43 W 42 M 1998 S16 S15 D7 D4 bomb 07/03/2007 OPA ILYBNILWY My Thread
I'm sorry, Confused, but that just seems naive to me. Why would we want to provide a wayward spouse with "space," when they're cheating on us?
Hi Pups
Again you are right, except if you want to save your marriage. EVERYTHING about DBing is counter intuitive. That's why most people get it wrong on their own, I think. I definitely got it wrong in a BIG way.
When you are abandoned, the normal reaction to the trauma includes rage (you start fighting with your WAS) and "symbiotic regression" which means you become pathologically dependent on your WAS, like a baby is dependent on his mother (So you start begging, being clingy and needy, and you latch onto your WAS like an octopus.)(See my previous post on the subject)
Your WAS's reaction is "I FEEL TRAPPED. I MUST OUT" It is natural. The more you rage and regress, the faster they run to get out.
So, to "give them space" does not mean to give them a licence to adultery, it simply means you DON'T fight and you DON'T cling. Someone here called it "Loving Detachment".
God I wish I knew this a year ago...
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I just don't understand this universal orthodoxy of "all snooping is bad" that I read on this forum. It seems to be the only infidelity forum where this is preached so universally.
Puppy
I expect snooping is universally bad because people are universally unable to handle it in such a way that you don't start raging and clinging. I know I am.
The other thing about snooping is that it is highly addictive, like gambling. It becomes an all consuming obsession. This I know from own bitter experience. I used to log onto Myspace and Facebook from my cellphone at all hours of the day and night to see what W was up to. Like any addiction it is destructive, you don't have energy to do anything else, and there is absolutely no question of GAL.
So, if you can snoop and keep your cool and not get addicted, I suppose you should do it.
Having said that, I am also convinced that you ABSOLUTELY need to know if your spouse is unfaithful. I may be wrong on this.
So I suppose a small amount of snooping is essential.
Do I sound confused? Maybe it is because I am...
Thanks for the clarification. I would agree with most of that, except the "except if you want to save your marriage" part. I would contend that the BEST way to save one's marriage is to lay out firm boundaries, and learn to enforce them while lovingly detaching and Getting A Life.
Unfortunately, yes, much of that is considering "anti-DB." Other posters got banned back in February and March for even stating such things, but I'm only advocating what worked for me in my sitch. Everyone has to make up their own minds about things like exposure, "tough love," boundaries, etc.
