Internet friendships?

[sandi2]

Well, haven't posted in a while and was trying to catch up on your stitch. First, I saw this that brought back some personal bad memories:

I did not snoop at all, although I did read over my w's shoulder while she was at the computer, she was furious

If that is not snooping....what is? My H did the same thing and in caused so much......I don't even know how to describe it......I could have almost hated him at that moment. He did it for a long time....and it is snooping! The same as if you stood over your W as she was writing a personal letter. She is in the wrong to be contacting OM on line. That is how she got into her trouble, but you were wrong to do that.

Then I read this and it upset me to think a professional doctor would do this to his little 4 & 7 year old children:

D4 comes to me (whole family is in the room)
"Mommy only joked when she told you she doesn't love you anymore. Ask her"
"No my love, she did not joke. She wants a divorce"
"What is that?"
"She went to the court to ask the Judge to tell me to move out of the house because she does not want to live here anymore."
"What is a Judge?"
"An important man who works for the government and decides what happens to people, for instance, he sends criminals to jail"
"Are you going to jail, Daddy?"
"No my love, the Judge will just tell me to move out of the house"
"Why?"
"Because Mommy does not want me to live here anymore"
D7 now takes over the conversation: "Mommy, why don't you want Dad to live yhere anymore?"
My W says: "Daddy and me can not live together anymore."
I say: "That is a demonic lie! There is a big difference between can not and want not! Don't lie to the kids! We can have a fantastic love relationship, you just don't want to! I LOVE YOU!"
D7 Goes historical.
S16 says "Dad you are EVIL! YOU DID THAT ON PURPOSE!"

Are you trying to lose your entire family forever? You know better to talk to a 4 & 7 year old like that! You were trying to get their sympathy and make your wife look as bad as you could. They are not old enough to even grasp the concept of divorce, judges, courts, etc. You could scare them half to death by telling them that some "judge" has the power to take their daddy away from them and it's all b/c mommy doesn't love him anymore. Well, poor daddy! You not only lost your sons' respect, but I'm sure you have lost your family after that performance!

God knows I did not. I want to protect my kids from pain, but I am NOT prepared to lie to them or to have them lied to.
I WILL NOT ALLOW the lie that this D is unavoidable to live in our home! I WILL NOT ALLOW MY KIDS TO THINK THAT I HAVE ANY PART IN THIS D!

You were wanting the kids on your side! Face it. That was pretty low for a man to do that. You want to protect your kids? Please! The two little ones are nearly babies.....how could you talk to them that way? Of couse the 7 year old got historical! The 4 year old would have too, only she was probably in a state of shock seeing this displayed in front of her. What a role model!

Yes, I am guilty because I helped to bring my W to the crossroad. But the A with the OM, The D were her choices. She could just as well have chosen the other road.

Yes, you are guilty and you need to admit that, but you didn't bother to tell your kids that, did you? No, you made "daddy" sound like a saint!

Sometimes it is necessary to give a kid an injection to prevent greater pain later on.

Oh really? Is that what you called yourself doing? You are lying to yourself and personally I don't think it was much of a man doing it.

God knows, it breaks my heart. I just hope that S16 will one day understand.

Yeah, it breaks your heart......but it is b/c you are feeling sorry for yourself, not b/c of the children. You will be very, very lucky if your son forgives you for doing this. That performance will stick in his mind for a long time. Who knows what it did to him. Why didn't you just go ahead and tell them what a terrible mother they had while you were at it b/c you hurt them enough by telling them it was all her fault that the family was breaking up and that poor daddy was being force out of the home.

You think it will cause the kids to "side with daddy" but you may be shocked to discover it will backfire on you b/c you did not protect them. They were simply too young to digest what you were laying on them....and then to scream at their mother, showing all the vile contempt you have for her....you disrespected her in front of her own children. Do you think that is how a "Christian" man should handle this stiutation? Why didn't you just stone her and be done with it? Then you get the little girl to pray for mommy but then tell her that Jesus can't stop mommy from the divorce, etc., etc., Well, that just probably damaged any hopes of much faith in the Lord for your little one. You were correct in what you said....it is up to your W, but that little girl could not understand what you were actually telling her.

I can tell you one thing....if I were your W......you would not get another chance with me after doing that to those little kids. I can't respect a man that would act like such a "saint" to his family, when in your heart you know better! To do that to those kids and act that way in front of them. I'm not taking up for what your wife did, but what you did was just as bad in my POV b/c it left mental and emotional scars on those children.

You need help and you better get it before you lose your medical practice and anything else in life you might still have at the moment.

[kolle]

In my depression over W's chat with OM I forgot all about yesterday morning. I took S15 bowling, we had a blast. Of course I won, but then we went to the arcade and he did his dancing machine thing -- He dances like a maniac and soon had a crowd watching him. No way I could compete with that.

W is off to another town to exhibit her art at the yearly "olive festival". So tonight it's just me and the kids.

Better get used to not having her around...

[kolle]

Sandi

You are a tough coach! I appreciate what you are doing -- it is good to get some feedback and I trust your advice.

You could scare them half to death by telling them that some "judge" has the power to take their daddy away from them and it's all b/c mommy doesn't love him anymore. Well, poor daddy! You not only lost your sons' respect, but I'm sure you have lost your family after that performance!

I must tell you, I have thought about this for a long time and these responses were not on made up on the spur of the moment. Yes, I know that I may have come to the wrong conclusions and may have said things that I should not have. In many ways I am in the dark, on a sea without a compass and I have to find my way. Books can help you only so far.

What will happen if my D4 and D7 wakes up one day and I do not live there anymore, but only see them on weekends?

1) They have to know about the divorce long before it happens. They have to be prepared for the seperation.
2) How do you explain Divorce to a 4 year old?
--> "Mommy and Daddy will not live together anymore. It will be Daddy who has to move out." (probably)

WHY?

3) I DO NOT WANT MY KIDS TO THINK THAT I AM OK WITH THIS D! Ok, maybe I should do what everybody tells me: Tell them that divorce is just something that happens and that mommy and daddy still love them, even if we are not living together anymore.
I am sorry, Sandi, I believe my kids deserve better than that. Even if she is only 4 she deserves to know WHY I am moving out!

--> "Daddy will be moving out because mommy does not want me to live here anymore, because she does not love me anymore."

That is God's own truth, how else should I put it?? W told her that she loved me, it is an obvious lie, even to a 4 year old, because then I would not need to move out.

4) I do not want my kids to think that ANY divorce is ok, unavoidable or something that just happens, like getting cancer or being struck by lightning. I WANT MY KIDS TO GROW UP WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT DIVORCE IS UNACCEPTABLE, AVOIDABLE AND THAT LOVE IS A DAILY CHOICE! Yes, I made mistakes in my marriage relationship but THEY MUST KNOW THAT DIVORCE IS NOT THE ANSWER! I want them to know this so that they can stay hapilly married in a world of disposable marriages. I want them to know this in spite of my total failure as a role model in this regard.

So, shall I keep quiet when W tells them the lie "We CANNOT live together?" What message does that give her? One day when her husband acts like an a$$h*le (as we all do from time to time), will she also come to the conclusion that she CANNOT live with him anymore? This false paradigm can serously affact her ability to have a healthy M herself!
The truth is, we CAN live together, W just does not WANT to do it.

Maybe you are right, maybe I should wait untill she is sixteen before I discuss it with her. The problem is, I may find then that it is too late. And it was not only D4 in the room, it was also S16, S15, and D7.

SO WHAT DO I DO!?

--> I tell everybody present that it is a lie, that the truth is that the divorce is not unavoidable.

5) My daughter has to have some concept of the legal process, that there is a court and a judge involved. Or I maybe wrong about this, maybe I should have left it out. I don't know.

Now let me tell you wher I come from. I am an ear nose and throat surgeon. I have pediatric patients from six months to six years old. They have pressure equalisation tubes in their ears which get infected from time to time. For medical reasons it is best to clean out the middle ear with a suction device when this happens. It is very scary, it makes a loud noise in the ear and sometimes it hurts, especially if the ear is very inflamed.
The mothers say "Lie still; the doctor wont hurt you."
This is a lie.
I show the kid the suction device, I touch her hand with it. I explain what is going to happen. It is ok to be afraid, but you have to be brave. It may hurt a bit, but if that happens I will stop. And often they will lie still when I clean out their ears and often it hurts and they cry, but they still lie still. (Yes often they don't)

BUT

IF YOU TELL A KID YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HURT HIM HE WILL NEVER TRUST YOU AGAIN EVEN IF IT HURTS JUST A TINY BIT!

I have learnt early in my career the the quickest way to lose a kids trust is to lie to them. Even if they are just three years old. (I regard three as the age of reason, they have enough language ability to understand much of what I tell them, even if they have no control over their emotions.)

I am also a children's book author, and the gospel all children's book authors live by is to never underestimate kids and never to write down at them.

I want my children to trust me. I want my children to know that they can choose to love. I cannot protect my children from all harm, I want them to be able to defend themselves. Like suctioning a kids ears sometimes I have to cause pain to protect.

You were wanting the kids on your side! Face it. That was pretty low for a man to do that. You want to protect your kids? Please! The two little ones are nearly babies.....how could you talk to them that way? Of couse the 7 year old got hysterical! The 4 year old would have too, only she was probably in a state of shock seeing this displayed in front of her. What a role model!

Yes I admit, something in me wants the kids on my side. Who wouldn't? I admit that sometimes I want to hurt my W as she hurt me. I saw visions of me hitting her the other day, it scared the blue hell out of me. I have broken doors, crockery and even one of my W's art canvasses in the last year since the bomb. I am a passionate, sinful man in a constant struggle with myself. Sometimes I have victories I can be proud of but often I have to admit that I am very ashamed of myself. Who in the world has only pure motives? But I can tell you honestly that "getting them on my side" was not my only motive.

My son said that I should not talk to the little ones about things they can't understand. I said, when will they be old enough? God, I am 43 and I can't understand what is going on in our lives at the moment.

Sandi, I gave you my five premises. They may be wrong, but then please tell me how. I told you how I handled the situation based on those premises. You obviously thought I did a shameful job of it. How would you have handled it?

[Virtually_Handsome]

I think with kids that age you need to present things as "we". Even if it isn't, and you don't believe it. My opinion that the kids have to see their parent as a unit, for parenting purposes. Even if you are divorced, the kids have to know that when it comes to parenting, they can't play one against the other. In time, they can be told more background, but not at 4 and 7. And I don't think I would mention the judge at all, they are going to think that a judges job is to break up families.

You don't want to lie to the kids, so say Mom and Dad can't live together right now. That is the truth, you don't need to go into why, and assigning the blame. Once you start going down that road, there could be enough dirt slung that the kids will hate both of you!

[kolle]

Then you get the little girl to pray for mommy but then tell her that Jesus can't stop mommy from the divorce, etc., etc., Well, that just probably damaged any hopes of much faith in the Lord for your little one. You were correct in what you said....it is up to your W, but that little girl could not understand what you were actually telling her.

This is what I said:

I say, No, He will show Mommy what is right and what is wrong, but He will not force her. She still has to do what God tells her after he told her. It is her decision.

Sandi on this point I have to passionately differ from you. One thing that makes Christianity completely different from other religions is the question of free will:
God created Adam and Eve with the capacity to decide wether they wanted to love Him or not. If love is not given freely it is not true love. They chose not to. He did not stop them. He gave us Christ: it is our decision to accept his sacrifice or not. If we reject Him He will not stop us. I do not want D7 to believe in a God that treats humans as puppets, and then throws them in hell for being a bad puppet. If I believed that I would be a Muslim. The Holy Spirit tells us what is right and wrong. If we choose to do what is right He helps us do it. If we choose to sin he does not stop us.

I did not say that Jesus COULD NOT stop the divorce. I said He WOULD NOT FORCE HER, even if He hates divorce.

Love is only true love if it is given freely.

What if I told her that Jesus would stop the D if He wanted to and He did not? How would that affect her faith?

I promise you D7 understood the concept.

[kolle]

I think with kids that age you need to present things as "we". Even if it isn't, and you don't believe it. My opinion that the kids have to see their parent as a unit, for parenting purposes. Even if you are divorced, the kids have to know that when it comes to parenting, they can't play one against the other. In time, they can be told more background, but not at 4 and 7. And I don't think I would mention the judge at all, they are going to think that a judges job is to break up families.

You don't want to lie to the kids, so say Mom and Dad can't live together right now. That is the truth, you don't need to go into why, and assigning the blame. Once you start going down that road, there could be enough dirt slung that the kids will hate both of you!

Hi Dry

Thanx for your input! Yes I believe you may have a point. But I am not convinced that this is more important than teaching the kids THAT DIVORCE IS WRONG AND AVOIDABLE.

I do believe that parents have to be a single unit as far as disipline is concerned. If you go back in my thread you will see that I had a MAJOR fight with my w on this subject some time ago. There are millions of good and acceptible styles of disciplining kids and parents have to agree on a single style or at least agree not to undermine each other. Even if they are divorced. I HAVE ALWAYS SUPPORTED MY W IN DISCIPLINE.

But this is not about discipline. This is a completely different matter.

Saying that Mom and Dad can't live together is a LIE. It implies that divorce is unavoidable. And it is not an innocent lie, it is dangerous. It can have devastating effects on their marriages one day.

We as parents are not infallible just because we are parents. I have on many occasions apologised to my children when I did wrong or was wrong, and often my W alerted me to the fact.

I really hope that W will one day apologise to them for this divorce.

I am not convinced that we don't need to tell them why. Even D4 wants to know why. At 4 one of your favourite words is WHY? I really believe she deserves an answer.

Never underestimate kids. Never write down to them.

[lovnlrn]

It's such a hard thing to do and endure. I have no words but can understand your frustration and pain.

[Virtually_Handsome]

Saying that Mom and Dad can't live together is a LIE.

To you it is a lie. to your wife, right now, it is not. So, you are telling the kids that there Mom is lying to them, as it looks from here.

I am not convinced that we don't need to tell them why. Even D4 wants to know why. At 4 one of your favourite words is WHY? I really believe she deserves an answer.

She deserves an answer. But think carefully about what message you send with it.

You have to be true to yourself in what you tell them. But, in my opinion, that might not mean telling them everything, at least right now. Over time, they are going to know, they will see it, and you can tell them. But right now, again, in my opinion, I think you are going too far in damaging their relationship with their mother. I know you've thought about it a lot, and I don't know that I am totally right. But I think it deserves another think. And maybe a talk with a family or child therapist? Not necessarily with them, just for guidance for you. I don't think I'll post on this again, I don't think it would be useful. But I'll watch.

Good luck, however you decide to go!

[kolle]

Hi Dry

Yes you are right in that it deserves another very good rethink. I have also thought a lot about how to handle the sitch with W before I discovered DBing and I did almost everything wrong. Unfortunately the 3 therapists I paid a lot of good money to didn't help either.

EVERY WAS will want to send the message "Mom and Dad can't live together anymore, but it is not your fault and we both still love you very much!" I have seen it in more than one book on how to break the D to the kids. I even saw a picture storybook with that message. It makes me sick! It implies (as I have said again and again) that D is unavoidable, like being struck by lightning.

OK so here is the message that I believe should be sent to the kids:
--Divorce is BAD. The pain we are all going through proves it.
--Divorce is UNNECESSARY and AVOIDABLE. There is an alternative. YOU CAN CHOOSE TO LOVE, BUT YOU HAVE TO DO IT EVERY DAY.
--MOMMY IS NOT BAD! She is a fantastic, good person who is doing a bad thing, like all of us sometimes do. (Like I do when I break things!)
--WE SHOULD ALL LOVE MOMMY WITH ALL OUR HEARTS! Look at me, even if I struggle to do the right thing I LOVE HER WITH ALL OF MY HEART. I DO THINGS EVERY DAY TO SHOW HER I LOVE HER!
--Because we love her WE ARE ON HER SIDE! We will watch out for her and defend her when people say bad things about her.

Writing this down really makes me realise what a miserable mess I have made the past year. Could my kids really see the love I profess in my actions towards her? I don't think so. The problem is the loving things I do are quiet things that easily go unnoticed, like when I cook and clean or when I apologise after a fight. The bad, unloving things are loud and in your face, like shouting and cursing and breaking doors.

I have come a long way in the past year. I have done immeasurable harm in the way I reacted to this situation. If I DB'ed from day one I would probably still be married now. But that is the past.

My new goal is to actively include the kids in DBing.

--I will use DB principles in my relationships with the kids, especially with S16, who is very angry at me.
--I will remind myself every day that the kids are watching me closely in my R with W. Do I really practise what I preach? Their future happiness is at stake.
--I will try to teach my kids the DB principles when they fight among each other and in conflict with their parents.

I HAVE TO BE A ROLE MODEL!

[kolle]

Recap of my goals: This is so I can read it everyday in one place:

--I will not snoop. I will completely detach from what she may be doing or did before. (this includes NOT READING OVER HER SHOULDER (thnx Sandi!!))
--I will not pursue her, seem clingy or needy.
--I will not judge her but support her. I WILL NOT GET INVOLVED IN ARGUMENTS!
--I will casually(!) and HONESTLY compliment W (3 times a day)once a week.
--I will (try to) spend time with W every day to tell her about my day and ask her about hers.
--I will consciously decide every day to love her unconditionally - no matter what.
--GAL with more energy. I need to rejoin a Bible study.
--Do more things around the house for her. I realise that recently I have not cooked and cleaned as often as before.
--I need to spend more time with the kids, collectively and individually.
--I will use DB principles in my relationships with the kids, especially with S16, who is very angry at me.
--I will remind myself every day that the kids are watching me closely in my R with W. Do I really practise what I preach? Their future happiness is at stake.
--I will try to teach my kids the DB principles when they fight among each other and in conflict with their parents.