H is Having Affair after all - Part 2

[Evie]

Thread Locked.

Eva,

I think your actual words were "I'm trying to DB, but I just don't want him to think he is forgiven...." or words to that effect.

Think hard about what that means. I KNOW you are still reeling and have not had time to sort this out or know where you stand with him, really, or where he stands with you....lots to process....

But I cannot imagine any man thinking "he's forgiven", because of DBing, which is not condoning or accepting of infidelity.

My h has apologized for his Alaskan obsession and moving here, etc. but he is more expressive of thanking me for coming than giving me the grand apology. I do not know of or believe he had an A. But he sure took a long time to miss us enough to say much. Looking back, I can honestly say he was DEPRESSED most of the time, but highly functional at work. I couldn't tell and I often suspected he was out having a ball while I was 300//3000 miles away with the kids and the house and school. In reality I think he had 80+ hour work weeks in the hospital doing his fellowship (456th credential possible...) and falling asleep in his bed, alone. I, on the other hand, DID GAL and truly began enjoying myself. I MISS those times with just the girls, and our son on the holidays, which h could only get a fews day for...We got used to the advantages it had and became very close. I feel sorry for my h. He is just glimpsing how much he missed and I think he envies the intimacy I have with our children. I hope he can regain some of it. In time. My children are forgiving and do love him. But perhaps they'll never see him the same way. I think that is sad, tragic, but probably true. Doesn't mean staying M isn't worth it. But their choices do leave scars, and so do ours if we don't watch out.

Please surrender to what you have no control over, which is most everything about your h's conduct/words/feelings/thoughts. You cannot control him and your efforts to do so, are wasted efforts that could be spent on YOU and GAL and your business perhaps, and of course, your beautiful children.

(( j- ))

[25yearsmlc]

EPD,

Just a few quick questions for you. Can you come up with some "mini" goals as to DBing? Things such as "no arguing with him in the next convo" or keeping your discussions only about the kids or business, for now?

If you set some maneagable goals with short time lines, it's easier to get through this. But you can't have expectations so it's a balancing act between setting small goals, yet GAL with the idea that life with/without your h will ultimately be alright, at the same time.

Also, as for OW, you need to do the "stop sign" or similar approach I think. Others who are in your position have said it helps them when they start obsessing about their WAS's with OP. Just picture the stop sign and don't go there. It'll eat you up. And it'll prevent progress on any front for you.

Try hard not to involve other people. At this point you say you want to keep the option of reconciliation open. But the more people who know of the A, the harder it'll be for him to even consider returning, he'll be too busy defending himself or getting angry, which is what many people do when they feel guilty. They lash out. That does nothing for you or the kids. And the harder it'll be for you to work on the M, b/c most people you tell, will advise you to D asap, and will not support your choice to work on the M. If you try to reconcile and others give you or your H feedback that isn't helpful, it'll just haunt the M.

With your h and his friends/family, SOME of them will try to "support" him and say that "if the M had been a good one, h wouldn't have had an A" etc. Or "he can't help how he feels...." etc, blah blah blah. And "kids are resilient" so h can do whatever he wants, and have no remorse for it, nor any need to change, b/c after all, they'll be alright. So I just think the fewer people who know of it, the better for your chances of reconciliation down the road.

And for that matter, even without a recon, it's best for YOU if others don't know b/c shaming the OW, or your H, does nothing for you. In fact, telling others may cause you to appear vindictive and could backfire in several ways. In California, bad mouthing your spouse in front of the kids is called "parental alienation" and is legally very frowned upon (which means, I guess, that if you want to call your h an "@#$%!!", you have to stay married....).

So take the high road as much as possible, stay calm, do not react to him. And just curious, how did your older children react to the end of your first M? And now?
Hope all of you have a good weekend and do something that makes you laugh.
take care,

(( j- ))

[Evie]

25 yrs - thank you for your support and patience with me.

You have asked some good questions and given some sound advice. Unfortunately i'm a little slow on digesting things.

I'll try and answers your questions.

Previously when i said that i hoped that H wouldn't think he was forgiven for his A, I didn't explain myself that well.

If i continued with my behaviour that was before the bomb on 5/03/08, in other words good DB, i knew that H would think I was ok about his affair. However, i couldn't continue with that behaviour at the time b/c of the shock/anger/deceit/hurt that i was feeling. I knew that i needed some time to myself to process my thoughts and to NOT react to him. Although all along i have said that i love him unconditionally and would hope with time i would be able to forgive him. I really want to be able to do that. I understand now that if i don't, i'll never be free of the bitterness and anger, and i want to move forward without being bitter and resentful.

Unfortunately, there are too many people that do know already about H & OW, b/c we (& OW) work at the same place and the rumour was out well before i was told. I admit I told a few colleagues when i found out, to preampt the gossip reaching them first, which it would have done it was just a matter of time, as it is such a small community. Now it's the easter holidays and most of the staff are off until 17/04/08, i'm hoping things will have calmed down considerably by the time school returns.

Work have been very good to me and told me to take as much time off as i need while the place is so quiet. I have taken advantage of this and had the last 2 days off. I've gone to the gym, then done some spring cleaning and slept, so in a way chillaxing but without having to think either, it's been really good.

Tomorrow the kids and I will drive 100 miles to bil's birthday party. H has decided not to go. Thats his choice and i'm glad he isn't.

H & s1 returned from their ski trip today, i was anxious and took 2 diazipan tablets to calm me down. Interaction with H was good, considering, i think i talked too much b/c of my nerves. H recently told me he had had to cancel the online banking for the business due to fraud. I never pursued it at the time, but I need the passwords now to be able to pay the wages and so asked H for the new password. He said he had cancelled it and was also going to put a stop to everything when he felt i was with holding info from him..... I'm soo proud of myself for not reacting to him. I could have said that i wasn't with holding any info, that i had reassured him that the business would continue as normal and how i felt he had been unreasonable by pressurising me for decisions about the business a day after i found out about his affair. I didn't even start to panic.

Your right about the stop sign and the OW. S1 has been telling me about his holiday and her name has come up quite a few times. Now i can either obsess about what i cant control or i put this massive red stop sign in front of me to stop me visualising the b*t*H and him together. I will do it. Do you know, i feel better for knowing about the affair, at least i'm not been deceived anymore, i know now and am aware that it could still be going on, hell they could see each other all over the weekend, i wouldn't know as i'll be out of town. I just hate the way he walked into the house and tried to continue as normal, he could win an oscar for his acting.

I was worried i wouldn't be able to look h in the eye today and i could and he came into the house and i didn't flip. yeah for me..

25 yrs - your right, conversation has to be about the business or boys. But as previously stated i talked too much already - about bil's b'day present, post and a leaflet with a picture of S1 on. Could kick myself now.

I don't have any expectations of H right now, like you said before - hold onto the door frames and let the earth quake pass and as Jen said, let the future take care of its self. I need to look after me & the kids for a while now.

However, H i KNOW will not leave me alone, he will find an excuse to contact me and while i need to respond, i am aware that i need to lovingly detach at the same time.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And just curious, how did your older children react to the end of your first M? And now?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Good question, D1 (19)has asked a lot more than d2(17). D2 has just spent the week with her dad and her dad has told her that i left him b/c i had an affair with current H. D2 came to me and said 'so mum, you had affair with ***** (current H)'. We couldn't talk at that time, so i have said we will talk about things. I don't know what XH's motive was for telling d2, but i'm not pleased. Now i'm in the position that i'm going to have to tell her things i wasn't ready to tell her at this time nor do i think she is ready to hear it or deal with it right now.

The girls were 3 and 5 when i left their dad. He had a temper and had hit D1 one too many times (not just a smack, but i don't want to go ino that right now). We lived with my mom for 9 months and then we all moved in with current H. Life was happier and calmer and fun. I had the usual q's from the girls, but was able to reassure them. They saw their dad regularly and i had my mom and current h as support.

The girls especially D1 is very supportive of me. She returns home from france in 3 weeks, i can't wait. In amonst H's post today was leter to him from her, no doubt she will have given him a piece of her mind.

Mini goals, is a good solution, boys and business only is a good start. I won't be initiating any contact with him right now.

Thanks for listening.

Love evie.

xxxxx

[saffie]

Evie,

I just read your post and this bit jumped out at me:

Good question, D1 (19)has asked a lot more than d2(17). D2 has just spent the week with her dad and her dad has told her that i left him b/c i had an affair with current H. D2 came to me and said 'so mum, you had affair with ***** (current H)'. We couldn't talk at that time, so i have said we will talk about things. I don't know what XH's motive was for telling d2, but i'm not pleased. Now i'm in the position that i'm going to have to tell her things i wasn't ready to tell her at this time nor do i think she is ready to hear it or deal with it right now.

My dad did this when my mum left him. He even went further I think and I remember him telling my sister and I he would tell us something about our mother that would make us hate her......we were 8 and 11 at the time.

My mum sat us down and told us about things in her past that he was threatening to tell us and hanging over her head - stuff she would rather have never told us or waited until we were older. She was very matter of fact and I can honestly say I only loved her more for learning these things about her; and it made my dad look real mean that he had tried to influence us and make us judge her - she was our mum!!!!! We knew she only ever acted in our best interests. Don't worry about telling your girls things - the sooner the better now it's been brought up. My sister and I were younger than your D's but we still knew/ sensed what was right and what was not.

(((((Big Hugs))))))

Sorry I have not been around much.

[25yearsmlc]

ED,
You're doing well, as far as chillaxing, and figuring out the mini-steps. Good!

Regarding the First M and D, here goes...
The comments I'm making are my first thoughts on this and could be wayyy off.

If your first M did end in part b/c you had current H in your life, regardless of the actual timing (I mean, your current h moved out awhile ago and said, therefore, he was not cheating by dating OW, and yet you see it very differently) you may have to concede the apparent similarity. But I don't know all the ins and outs and whether you'd have tried harder at your first M, if current H had not been in the picture. Probably.??

Why not say something like, "although I can see why you'd equate the situations, there were totally UNrelated reasons I had for leaving your father...which I'm not prepared to tell you. But your father knows those reasons, and I'm sorry he's chosen to have such a selective memory..."
Just don't pretend there are no analogies. I bet your current H thinks he wasn't "cheating". If he stepped out of the house at all, and "confessed" that he wasn't "sure about the M", for a lot of men that's enough "notice" and they have a license to date, etc., without being called adulterers. I think most people do rationalize it and the more you throw it into his face as a mortal sin type thing, the more he'll see you as being hypocritical.

Also you may want to do some soul searching and see if you do feel guilt about the way your first M ended. If so, why not say something to that effect, such as "While we [ie. you and your 1stH ] had some big problems, and I felt the M was truly over when I moved out, I should have waited longer to date H2..."

The difficulty you may have is it's likely to be something your current H is telling his family. Maybe, maybe, you could "embrace" the moral dilemma by saying you've had an "aha" moment and now you get how hurt your 1st h was, since he's telling D's about it, and you should/could have handled it better..." And maybe (or maybe not), say, that h1 is leaving some facts out...Or just confess that you made a big mistake having it go the way it did.

Main thing is, wouldn't you do things differently now, if you could? If so, say so. If
I were you I would not claim that "these are totally different situations!" unless you can make the case quite clearly, AND without bashing your 1stH. I don't know that you can. It's a "conundrum". (Glad I used that word, since it was this week's challenge).

Ideally, (whatever that means), you'd have had much more time post 1stM, alone for reflection and on your own with the girls, to get to know yourself, make some changes, GAL as you are now. You might have tried more to learn from whatever experience you had, what your own role was in the demise of the first M, what type of men you attract and are attracted to, etc. Maybe there is a pattern in you that creates these situations? I think you're fairly self aware, or at least you are brave enough to want to look within, plus I think you really want to be happy and that you'll do whatever it takes to get there, with or without your h....which is great.

My sister, the one I've told you about who none of us want to be like (very clingy and needy with 1H until she smothered him so much that he left her for OW and married ow, had a child with her and remains m to OW now for 11 years, etc. Sister has Zero self awareness. Has NO idea what happened in first M, or why h1 left, etc. Has never once said she would do things differently or that she made any mistakes, etc. D was ALL about evil OW and selfish exH).

SHE is remarried to a nice guy. Unfortuanately he (h2) is terminally ill, and she knew that going into the M. He has outlived all expectations, and that has been a miracle. Until recently he has been "with it" and contributing to the household expenses, etc. But yes, his time is now short and the Hospice people have put a hospital bed in their living room, and this terribly depressed my sister of course. It's so symbolic to her that this is really it.

But what's horrible to me EVD, (not quite sure why I'm telling you, maybe b/c I feel as if you'll know why she did this, and I'm being sincere, ok?)

Ummm, oh yes, my sister had her wedding anniversary last week. Her h is suffering from a brain tumor and "forgot" about it (gee, maybe it's b/c he has a Brain tumor!) and when he saw the card his d17 made saying "Happy Anniversary" he said thanks, but didn't seem to notice or "get it" much, according to my sister. She was really disappointed in his reaction/lack of one and I found that strange. Why not just GIVE HIM a present and shut up about it, "forgive" him for being sick, etc?

ANYHOW, she took him to the funeral home to make arrangements with him... OMG, I freaked out at how weird I thought that was, and so did my other siblings and mother. This infuriates my sister who says we don't get it, and we are not being supportive of her and to stop "heaping guilt" on her... She has made it clear that her life is the hardest life imaginable, and I feel when I'm with her, that she is sucking out my energy (will to live, etc.) so it's very draining to be with her. I felt that taking him to plan his own funeral (and I guess, his coffin or cremating thing), was morbid and maybe a very angry thing to do, and wow... Sorry to hijack. Just weirded out thinking of that when I was writing....yikes.

Anyway, let me know if you have any thoughts. I am thinking of an intervention type thing for my sister and NO, I do NOT think you are acting like her!! ...not yet anyway.
j-

[Evie]

this is an email my H sent to D1, after she had written him a letter:

X, Thankyou for your letter and hello.

Have just come back from Switzerland skiing and will discuss S1. He has now in Gold group, his technical ability is brilliant and he was the youngest in his group skiing with 13/14 yr old boys - fab.

I have read your letter - I am not going to try and explain my reasons or excuse what I have done.

There are two sides to every story and to every relationship. Being 41 I am still learning about life and as years go on you realise that you do not live forever. In the short - life has to be right for you and if is not and you stay with the person not only are you being selfish to your self but even more selfish to your partner, which I feel is inexcusable. It is impossible to re-live time and not only would I be wasting my life I would be wasting your mom's too - none of us get any younger.

What I am writing may seem so very very selfish - but life is like that. We are born on our own and we will die on our own - you will and I will one day and in the mean time life has to be right - it has to be right for you.

I did not leave your mom for another women (as every one thinks - at work, friends and family etc etc). I left home because my relationship with your mom was not right - it was not making me happy and the reason for staying at home for so long is because it was the biggest decision of my life that I have ever had to make. It has effected every one around me and at the top of the tree are the boys, you and Y.

Yes - I have been seeing OW and I am good friends with her - our relationship developed after I had left home.

My relationship with your mom has not been right for approx two years and two years is a very long time. I am not going to become a munk for the rest of my life - we all need to move on.

There are a lot of things that have happened between me and your mom - I have no want to discuss them with you or anyone or for you to know these things.

As soon as your mom and i got together she has always said to me that if ever one of us is unhappy in our relationship whether we have children or not that WE MUST move on and not stop together - this I have done.

There are many reasons why your mom has always said this and it is up to her if she want to tell you why. She has had more experience in life in that area with your dad. Your mom and dad's marriage did not work either - relationships do break down and fail and of course they can also work.

I know you are hurting and Y is - and I am sorry, im also sorry for the boys but I will always love you all, I shall never walk away from the boys - ever. They are my responsibility, I love them and would die for them.

As you get older I'm sure you will ( hope you will) begin to understand.

If I put it like this - As a parent it would deeply upset me to see you, Y, S1 & S2 married in a very unhappy marriage. I would always support you in any way if you decided to leave your partner(s), because YOU have to be happy - it's you life and yours only.

Q. If it were you son or daughter and they were unhappy what would your advise be to them?? (I hope it would be - get out of it).

D1, I will always love you - you have every thing going for you. Please make sure what ever you do in life, make sure it's right for you and have the courage to say if it's not - I will never not love you for doing so.

I would love to hear from you but will understand if you have no wish to see me again. We are all individuals and all have our own ideas and should always respect other people's decisions whether you think that they are right or not.

I still respect your mom and would wish for no other women to be the mother of my boys however I don't love your mom - I'm sorry if this sounds hard. x

[LL44]

I am not sure what to think of it. I see a lot of references to you: ask your mom, your mom said this, your mom did that. I see a lot of "do what makes you happy" and none of "keep your committments".

The last line, that he doesn't love you, its just so unnecessary.

What do you think of the letter?

[saffie]

I shall never walk away from the boys - ever. They are my responsibility, I love them and would die for them.

He makes it sound like he WOULD walk away from the girls.

I think the letter sounds like he is trying to justify himself - in reality all he had to say was he loved the kids and it was between the two of you and nothing to do with the children. That he would always be there for all the children.

Makes me feel

[Jen_Jam]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm ... i'm thinking.

First thought, he's saying if you don't like something/if there is a problem then run away.

What if the thing you don't like/the problem is within oneself? One cannot run from oneself.

If I could talk to your H I would quote the Dalai Lama "Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. "

Going to think a little more on this ...

[25yearsmlc]

Wow, EVD,

I think that's a tough letter to read. I had trouble reading it through. Ouch....

First impressions... He uses lots of hackneyed cliches to justify, but his actual wording isn't too hostile. He PROBABLY has convinced himself, for now, that he is only "being true" to himself, life is about being with someone who "makes" you "happy" as opposed to any issues he has internally, and obviously keeping commitments that aren't "making" one happy" have to get the boot. He definitely is using your past to help him feel more at ease. The one way to sort of turn that around is If he knows, deep down, that you did in fact go through a lot with the first M. You could remind him of the efforts there and how little, comparatively, he did to make this M work. But keep in mind that he may also view your first M very differently than you do now. Your comments today about it, would have to jive with his, more or less. Might not be helpful otherwise. He'll just say the same thing happened in this M, as your last, except he's the one leaving. Was he M before as well?

He doesn't apparently view the OW as a real issue and I think that it's good news. That's b/c he is NOT saying "OW is my true love" "finally met the right woman," etc. He's talking about YOUR M and the problems you two had.
He isn't talking about his future with OW.

Which makes this a little easier in the sense that you have some control as a member of a 2 person relationship. Like the DB books say, M's are relationships with 2 people and if you change one of them, the M itself changes. For me, that's the main premise of DBing. Maybe our changes won't fix all the issues, but by improving ourselves, then all of the relationships we're in, by definition also improve. We just have to hope it's enough down the road to perhaps save the M.

How'd your daughter(s) react? I agree that he could have said more reassuring things to your daughters, but I doubt he meant to define/limit his obligations. Try to reassure them of how much he cares, even if you don't totally believe it. He does care about them although he isn't a very strong man right now. But He isn't trying to be cruel. He wants to reduce expectations of him as much as possible, and he his trying to quell the questions and accusations. So, back off on making them, or having others do it for you.

See, he is defending his choices and he will only bother doing that as long as he feels his choices are being attacked. He can't hear his own "inner voice" b/c others are using their "parental voices" and judging him, accusing him and forcing him to explain. He's defensive b/c he believes everyone is against him, (and OW). Despite his claim that he isn't making excuses or trying to explain himself, that's exactly what he's doing. Somehow he has to feel enough space to do some internal looking without someone there to say (even metaphorically) "See that? That's where you went wrong..." This is HIS search and only his.

The only thing we can safely assume is that your overt attempts to pursue, or to accuse, or to show anger at him, will likely fail. Those are things NOT to do. Same with making him and OW unite because it's them against the world.

You must GAL and "act as if", faking it 'til you're making it, for now. For the possibility of a recon, life with or without him, a happier YOU, all depend on
you GAL and getting there. You really can do this.

Even though we may wish the letter had said "I don't know how I feel about your Mom", or "I'm open to talking" etc., if he's in MLC or some other path that COULD lead back to you, at least he's farther down the road and will get to the end of it, wherever it leads, a bit faster. Hang in there.

Remember my cousin and aunt who divorced and then remarried their ex'es?

It does happen, but not overnight. I think each of them had written their M's off b/c after all, they were divorced. That's it, right? It's over....No pressure or pursuit after their Divorces...

But out of necessity they did try eventually, to have decent relationships with the ex spouse b/c they had kids together. In time, they felt more comfortable with each other. In time, that built to "safe" friendships, and then more happened. They remarried, with their children watching. The 2nd time around for both my cousin and aunt, were better than the first ones. My cousin is still remarried to his ex, (ie, they are still reconciled and it has been over 12 years now) and my uncle died 6 years after their remarriage. At his deathbed, stood my aunt, and their 3 children...
Keep the faith. Or find some and then keep it. Are you religious at all? It definitely helps at times like these and nope, I don't think God deducts points from our "accounts" for waiting until the s--- hits the fan before dialing our "911" emergency calls. I think God is just happy we call him sometimes. Call if you haven't already. He'll give you strength through this.

(( j- ))