I was asked to post this here from my thread in Surviving and so I am doing so...This was a post I wrote a few days which has started an interesting discussion. It starts out in the middle of a previous conversation but I decided not to edit and paste the post in it's entirety. -----------------------
Thank you Pam, it always surprises me when someone tells me they've "known" me here for years. It's pretty cool really.
I hope Mrs. H will be okay, she seems very low right now. Perhaps there were times, in the beginning when people felt worried about me too--I don't know.
What concerns me though is that she has been going through all of this for so long now and is still "stuck" waiting for her H to change.
This brings me to the thought process that has been brewing for me all night and that is about the utility of standing--whatever that means.
Divorce Busting as a principle for saving oneself and being solution oriented is a good thing and I support and applaud it. Divorce Busting to wait out an alleged MLC or "alien behavior" is, in my opinion, harmful.
MLC--is it real? Yes, I think it is. But is it the same as being a total jerk? No, I think not. Hell, I believe I've experienced an MLC myself, but I did not destroy my family in the process of having it. And so while I think MLC is a legitimate "syndrome" if you will, I think it is used here all too often to explain away bad character, bad behavior and supports an environment of denial. It also lulls us into thinking that when they "snap out of it" things can go back to normal. Well, look at LisaLost as an example of how that can be a very dangerous mindset. I worry for her safety and the safety of those children. She has a violent a-hole for a husband. Not a man in Mid life or quarter life crisis or any other damn excuse. He is a pig.
Abusers says nice things and make grand proclamations of love. Listen up--THOSE ARE NOT BABY STEPS!
This is not the first time I have wondered about the efficacy of DB. I wanted so badly to believe that my H was in some sort of crazy and transient crisis state. Why did I need to believe it? Because then my marriage, my children, my love for him would still make sense. If indeed he just changed his mind and decided he was not happy and needed to make major changes to BE happy, then everything that came before, everything with me, would be a sham. That's how I felt then.
But now I can look back and understand that he wanted a change and he made a change and it does not invalidate our life together. He is an individual that I cannot control--he's his own person, he is not "mine."
I know he loved me once, very deeply. I know that. Period.
I also know that the longer I held on to the idea that he would come back to me--the longer I "STOOD" then the longer I was trapped.
Okay, leave the door open,fine, but you don't have to stay in the house waiting for him to walk through that door. I say get out there and live life as if you are divorced. Move toward single hood in your mind because let's face it--most of us are not going to reconcile. You can find the few examples around here that do, but their life is no picnic and the reconciled marriage often does not last.
I just hate to see the same people I started here with 2 years ago still clinging onto the desperate hope their husband or wife will snap out of it and come have a lovely supper with them some day. It's maddening! These are the people that continue to cycle in and out of deep depression. These are the people who continue to drag their children through the hell of separation because they cannot move on with their life and accept the reality of the here and now. There are no winners in those situations and it pains me so much to see their perennial suffering.
Why do we treat our walk away spouses like they are children who don't know any better? They are adults for God's sake. They are adults who make selfish decisions but they are not usually crazy. If they have chosen another person, then so be it. That is what they have chosen. It's not what I would have done, or what you would have done, it's what they are doing. If they lie to us or to our children--big deal! Of course they lie! They have already proven to us that that's how they function and excuse themselves. Why are we always so surprised? It's time we simply accept them for who they are and in many cases, try to have as little contact as we can with them. If they have a BF or GF why don't we just deal with it. I don't like it, no I HATE it that my ex is still with the woman he left me for but for the love of God they've been together going on 3 years now--I need to just accept it and try to move forward.
I will be doing myself a favor and my children a favor if I can simply accept her. She is not evil. She is nice to my children. She did a bad thing and some day karma will make things right but until then, I don't need to worry about it.
So, that's my little rant for the day. I don't much like what's happening on the boards these days but I still think there is great value here. I know this place was one of the things that saved me from self destruction and I will always be grateful and will always try to give back when I can.
As a postcript to the above post, I would also like to state, for the record, I think it is harmful to advise people that "he may be waking up" or "it sounds like he may slowly be coming back" or whatever--you get the idea.
Look, when we were Newcomers, we needed to hear these things. We were in shock, we needed some hope. But a lot of us have been here long enough to know better. I urge those of you who continue to offer false optimism to think before you speak. Let us us change our focus from them to us. Let us steer ourselves in the direction we want to go.
To get back to a very simple principle...we can only control ourselves. Let's stop obsessing on the WAS and the OP so that we can free ourselves from the prison we are stuck in.
- first, I have seen some amazing things over the years here, some spouses have come back that I nEVER thought would; so I would say never say never.
- second, it is true that many times, people in this forum mistake "standing" for "lie down and be a doormat". You are not "standing" for your marriage if you are not working on yourself, GAL, and growing in every way possible. Simply waiting for your spouse to "wake up" is seldom a useful technique - they feel it as pressure and pursuit. On the other hand, if you work on yourself and are willing to be very very patient, the WAS may come home. Just keep healthy boundaries if you choose that approach.
- third, there are NO guarantees how things will turn out. I see a variety of outcomes. Some spouses come home. Some LBSs decide they have grown so much their WAS is no longer the person they want to be with. Some LBSs realize their spouse has serious issues, like abusive behavior or addiction, and they should not be fighting for their marriage at all. MANY WASs regret their choices and want to come home - usually after the LBS has moved on, unfortunately.
- fourth - OFTEN the thing that brings the WAS back around is the fear (or the reality) of the LBS dating someone else. I do NOT recommend dating - but it IS usually a good thing to give the impression that you may or have moved on. This gives the WAS the opportunity to wake up before it really is too late.
As to whether MLC is "real" - I have no doubt it is, as the pattern of behavior is so standardized` as to be almost hilarious. MOST WASs suffer from depression, to me MLC is just depression with an added burden of midlife questioning (Is this all there is? Did I make the right choices in my life? If I buy a Mercedes and date a twenty year old does that mean I will never die?)> Fear of death and dying, and/or reconsidering one's priorities in life, are midlife crisis issues. The difference between a MLCer who takes up skydiving or novel-writing, versus the MLCer who has an affair, is usually a matter of depression and/or character. MLC does NOT excuse their behavior, but if you have a depressed MLCer, they are also nOT in their right mind.
I understand why the members of the divorced forum feel the way they do - many of them feel this forum offered them "false hope". But I really don't feel that is wholly accurate. Hope is just that - a possibility, not a guarantee.
MMO I have to say, with what I think I'm hearing from you...I agree.
Using DB techniques when someone is in the MLC, and it appears you are trying too hard...is MORE OF THE SAME and harmful to yourself. Using it to diffuse intense situations, to build your skills in communication, can be helpful to yourself and a given situation.
Are we on the same page?
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
Ellie--I think you are wonderful. I think you offer straight advice and help people refocus their energy on themselves. And yes, hope is a good thing but all too often what I see is a fixation that centers on that shred of hope. What difference does it make if they may come back? Or if they regret it later? Or if there are examples of the craziest MLCer coming back to his senses? None of that makes a beans worth of difference in terms of the direction we must head and that is in the direction of self reliance and independence. I am not disagreeing with what you said, just clarifying my position more.
If your spouse is gone and telling you there is no hope and they want a divorce--BELIEVE it and do what you have to do to become independent. Telling someone to only believe half of what they do and none of what they say or whatever that expression is (?) is damaging and, IMO, counterproductive. It prevents us from taking a good hard look at ourselves and puts us in the mindset of a victim. Not only that, we are invalidating their experience. MLC or not, standardized symptoms or not, it is a REAL experience for them and their feeling about us and the marriage are REAL.
Detaching, getting a life and forgiving are the most important things to do in my opinion. Learning techniques for non-violent communication are key and a lot of the people I started with (IamTJ, Xue come to mind) really helped with that. Doing those things in a way that is empathetic to them is fine--if calling it a mid life crisis helps you empathize, fine. Moving forward and allowing for the possibility of things to change in the future is also fine--if that includes dating, I see nothing wrong with it--only if that is what YOU want to do and you are not doing it to get back or make someone jealous. But move forward we must. If the relationship is going to be reincarnated some day then that will happen whether a divorce has taken place, whether new relationships have come and gone and whether years have passed. If it is meant to be it will happen. The important thing is that we get on with our lives.
Listen, you know as well as anyone here I have LOVED making fun of Mitch and the leather clad one. But too much of that turns into an obsession and I know we don't want to breed an atmosphere of obsession here. We are only human. We need to vent, cry, analyze, etc.
I don't think it's about being in the divorced forum Ellie, I think it's about seeing people I started here with still cycling through horrible depression and feeling that the advice they are being offered is only going to help them remain stuck in that place of pain. I know we have to move through this grief at our own pace and in the beginning we really do need to believe there is hope for our marriages but after years of refusing to accept that the marriage is over and refusing to accept that the WAS's reality is indeed their reality (and is just as valid as our "reality) and continuing to wonder if they are "in the tunnel" yet, well, who is the one not living in reality anymore?
I would never post this in Newcomers--that is a differnt animal all together. I found my way to where I did through the help of people like you Ellie. You had a fabulous balance between tough love, humor and hope and I loved that. You are wise and I value your friendship on these boards SO much.
SG--Building communication skills, accepting our part of the blame, changing those things about ourselves we think need to be changed and allowing our WAS to have their experience without assigning all kinds of pseudo-scientific motivations to it...if that is the page you're on, then yes, we are on the same one.
I agree with you that there have been some problematic dynamics on the MLC forum.
But I think those problematic dynamics are pretty much AT ODDS with DBing, not because of them. DBing is about become a whole, well-functioning, happy human being with strength, integrity, and self-respect. It is about moving away from being a victim and owning one's choices. It is about open-mindedness, compassion, validation, and respect for oneself and the WASs. It is about becoming the person we want to be for ourselves and for any future R we might, whether it is with a WAS or someone else.
The problematic dynamics that I've seen in the MLC forum are at odds with the DB project, so-construed. I believe that is why the moderators intervened (though I wish they had done it differently). If so, maybe those dynamics will shift and the forum will move into a more productive healthy mode.
Telling someone to only believe half of what they do and none of what they say or whatever that expression is (?) is damaging and, IMO, counterproductive.
Smooches, Althea, but I have to disagree with you on this one point. SO often, the WAS says things that the LBS takes literally at face value - when the WAS is so messed up, they don't even REMEMBER saying it, and later on will vehemently deny they ever COULD have said it! This saying, IMHO, saves a lot of people a lot of unnecessary grief that comes from taking everything they say literally.
That's not to say that sometimes they don't actually mean what they say. Especially if they're saying you can do better - you probably CAN!
As for dating - my point is this: if you're NOT done with your spouse, then dating often leads to very messy situations, where the WAS comes back and the new beau gets the shaft, and the reconciliation with the WAS is bedeviled by yet another skeleton in the closet. If you're not done, isn't it better to first give the IMPRESSION of dating, and let the WAS have a chance to figure it out before involving yet another person?
Of course, if you're done with your spouse, then by all means date. And there's no denying that spending an evening with someone who thinks you're fascinating and attractive can be very healing for the LBS.
