when I first read your thred, I recognized the similarity in how you and I see things, but now I am amazed at how far it goes...
While your page was downloading, I was thinking about starting some kind of a topic like you suggested... Well, the only reason I am still reluctant to it -- when I tell any good news here or to a friend, it immediately turns into its opposite. So, I am becoming very superstitious...
The other thing you suggest -- telling him anout loving him at a distance and not being available when he needs amotional support -- this is what my mind has been set on for the last year or longer. However, my "scenario" is final (unless a miracle happens) -- telling him all the good things I have anside and then saying that I just can't bear it any longer, that I will still be his friend and will be availbale for a talk or glass of wine -- but only after I can emotionally detach from him enough to become indifferent. Of course, if he would still need me after that. And this would take time and distance, months or years -- I don't know. Four years did not do any good in changing my attitude -- maybe becasue I had hope and never told myself to quit.
But this scenario is rather a last resort.
What you say -- how to let him know that I am there but unavailable -- is very difficult for... technical reasons. See, I already decided to do this two weeks ago -- and he never gave me a chance to try it, as he doesn't call or write. With his intuition... I am nearly sure that that he senses (ESP ) and "decides" -- "well, if she doesn't want to be available, why disturb her at all"? Believe it or not, more and more I get convinced how those "ESP" things work, at least, for us -- when I forget all my Makiavelli's strategies and simply get filled with love, he appears... So, here is my koan: if you close and think about not letting him have you at his disposal, he stays away; if I open up -- it's something nice and then -- again in limbo.
...Worst of all, when it happens, I only remeber that he wanted to be alone and that of all what it was, only "responsibility and gratitude" were left (said four years ago).
About positive things -- I have been keeping a "technical" e-diary for the last year, writing every day who did what (if anything) and if there was something "special", and I can see the crescendo of good things. But then -- oooops! -- last time we really talked was nearly two months ago, and I know he is not happy, when he calls, he sounds tired and seeking attention... andthen disappears without making any plans.
Oh, Gosh... It really looks to me like we both are stuck in time, doing excatly the same things, making exactly the same mistakes, only at a different level, as we did several years ago, when each one was afraid of rejection and kep his fears and desires to himself... And you know -- if I were him, I would certainly wait for me to make the first move: after you push a person away so hard, after so much harm done, one has to be very bold to feel good saying "OK, I changed my mind, I am sorry, you may return now". And after really being pushed away so hard, I am waiting for him to say something like that... Go figure...
General update on us Posted this latest chapter here and there on this site and here's the latest wrap up: H has female friend that I've been feeling uncomfortable about. We've had some VERY intense discussions about this. After about a month of working on this issue we have come up with agreements that allow me to feel safe and allow him to feel free. I think that what has helped the most is that through this he started to understand that I need a pretty hefty dose of affection and appreciation and somehow (I'm not sure how this has happened) I have managed to inspire this. What a great topic for dialog. Think we'll both answer the question: What have I done lately that has helped you to feel better about us? Bet that will generate a lot of positive reinforcement for both of us!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alottolearn: [B]My H detached from me for 5 years, but led me to believe that was devoted to me. I thought we were in the top 3% of happily married couples.
Alotto - I thought the same - but maybe not top 3%! There was no OW, that I know of - but haven't ruled out 100%. I could not be as strong as you, or others.
"I was his best friend and good for him. He says that he never stopped loving me."
That is the key, or at least one of them, imo.
H and I will have another OR talk...reading what you wrote will help me - since I will be guiding the talk. So what you said will help. Your words:
" 1. that we could make it and 2. how we were going to make it."
"My H is the gentlest man I have ever known. He also has an exceptionally high sense of ethics and too high expectations of himself."
Same with my H except he's not the gentlest man - but a compassionate one. Like your H, his childhood contained horrendus stuff - but I thought he overcame it - but now realize, he hid it so well, he fooled not only me but probably himself.
You said your H met a man who impacted his outlook in a positive manner. My dad, was this man to my husband. He passed away and now, his mentors (I believe) are his divorced boss, his brother, his friend, and this other man. The first mentor frightens me - because he is a man, who is nice, who is compassionate, who recently divorced his wife.
"Figuring out how in the world to even partially trust this person with my heart, and most of all how to reset my reality gauge has seemed impossible at times."
I go back and forth with this too - but have grown to accept being non-judgmental. To let things go. But still, there is that heavy feeling.
"I have no ability to live in the same house with the man I've always loved with all my heart if he is lying to me. It is more about the lying than even having any kind of affair."
Wow - About the lying - that is the killer for me. Again, no A that I know of. He did not lie - but he did not open to the truth and hid from me his hollowed feelings, for who knows how long. My world said we were fine - my world said he and I had come a long way, but his world saw emptiness. Is that not a lie? To still make love to your spouse, to live as a team, yet, feel such nothingness - while all along I thought I was the love of his life?
"I believe that my H always loved me but did not know how to communicate his needs."
Ditto here.
"I learned how to do this at Retrovaille."
That sounds like such an excellent program. I wonder if H would go...I am not sure I am ready.
"1. Attitude: patience, endurance, patience, listening skills, patience, honesty, developing skills at supporting my H when he tells me negative feelings, lots more patience, realizing my faults, tons of patience for that one, learning how not to be controlling ouch, more endurance and did I mention patience? Could I go on? Forever."
LOL! Patience - hum, could that be an important thing?!
"4. A few good psychotherapists for myself and as a couple."
I think I need around 20. Actually, I'm studying as if I were in school - and taking the lead, unlike ever before (but doing it with a little more patience these days).
******************
Allotolearn - Thank you for your post - and of all days for me to read this...it could not have come at a better time. My therapist says "it's time" for me to initiate OR - she sees how I cannot go on much longer - and my story isn't half as bad as many on this board. It's not the story - it's being patient. It's dealing with anxiety and fear and that blown away feeling of having the rug pulled from under you. It's about defeating self doubt and self defeating thoughts. It's about who wants it the most - who will win. It feels like a competition of sorts and I hate to compete, unless it's with myself. It's about not knowing if this alien I'm married to is afraid to love me or just flat out does not love me, as a wife should be loved. Although there are children, at times like this, it's so self absorbing it's about our selves. And working from us on out. So regardless of children or not - we all are at the same starting point. (Did I make sense?!)
Last night - a turning point. But that turning point won't carry me for too long. This man has to open up a crack or I will withdraw too.
You have alot to say to H. Make a genuine effort to narrow it down to one or two points. Have a goal in mind. Let all the other thoughs go. Baby step one foot at a time.
Kent - still haven't done OR talk. But I typed and printed out an outline for the "session". I'm using allotolearn's basic outline:
#1 We can make it better it both of us choose to. (key- is both)
#2 How we can do this -be honest and upfront -read 5 Languages of Love - find/discuss our own language -realize sugarcoating life, avoiding truths does not lead to intimacy - only away -it's all about the approach to how we discuss. We've both learned enough and are ready for this step.
#3 I won't tolerate in limbo anymore. (But I can't make it sound like a threat - so will approach that as delicately as possible).
Do you think that is too much Kent?
*** Something is still amiss big time - he is hiding something. -A fear? -An OW? (I doubt it but would not shock me) -His plan of riding out life w/me until the kids are on their own? -Is he simply depressed? I don't know.
After almost 5 months of DBing I've learned a lot but still overall lack knowledge of his intentions. It's not about being patient anymore - it's about refusing to avoid confrontation like he does. Someone made me realize this yesterday.
THanks Kent and allotolearn for letting me crash your post.
All are more than welcomed! Glad you wrote WG. Seems to me that the most important part of a talk like that is being as emotionally prepared as possible for things not going how you hoped. Keep us posted.
But first, I am just fine with reality. It's not the reality I choose but it also is not the reality I will ignore, or let my H ignore. I won't make it easy on him by pretending what is wrong isn't.
After our OR talk I realized what I thought to be true, is true. He feels he can never love me the way I deserve , he does not want to divorce, and there is no OW. At least I finally have a platform to stand on.
My email:
********** "I will stay in my marriage - rise above it - tell him I won't pretend nothing is wrong with our marriage and when he's ready to quit being a sh#t, I'll be here. (I won't use the sh#t word tho). I'll have OR talks anytime I damm well please. I'll have sex if I feel like it and take a selfish approach to that and fill those needs - as he does - with out emotional love.
I won't break up our family because my kids daddy doesn't love their mommie. I won't destroy their home because of him. I'll try to act as normal as possible, for their sake. I'll grab him and kiss him in front of the kids - for the kids. This sitution we are in takes two - but this problem of his - IS HIS!
He is not having an A, he does NOT want a divorce - he just has a problem.
For better for worse...
I finally have a platform to work from...and it feels good. *********
I am sick of being so flocking self consumed with my marriage. It's time to move on. There are other things I can find to be fulfilling - outside of men. No offense to the many good men out there - but I think many are selfish by nature, my H being one. And I'm obviously too trusting and gulliable, like he says I am, to see thru all that sugar coating.
-K
Edit in - if you Alotta or anyone else wants my email address to bounce off ideas - it's febgal@hotmail.com The goal is to quit complaining. If some miracle happens - something good I'll post for inspiriation. But for now it's time to let it go. I don't know if I'll be around these boards or not. The fun stuff is fun but it's too easy to venture elsewhere. And I'm stopping myself from living by spending too much time dwelling on what I can't fix this minute. It's 10:12 am and I'm still reeling about my marriage and have yet to work out. I am wasting time.
[This message has been edited by Wintergirl (edited 04-09-2001).]
I used to be as strong as that....my basic philosophy was such that if you don't like what you see or how I am, don't look, bother with me....and, if you're gonna look-don't complain.
I recently took a personality test, similar to the Myers-Briggs one (took that years ago and also within the past year-no change...ENTJ I think....) anyway, this recent one was to do with how I feel about how others perceive me...I got a score of "1" and a "0" out of a possible "18" and "18" in the particular "I" category of how I feel about how others perceive me and if I care that they accept me or not.
So, basically, I have not changed my initial philosophy in light of finding out about A (took that test after the bomb)....but-I think it HAS altered me with regard to how H views me. The rest of the world can (still) take a flying leap; in that, if they don't like me or accept me...fine. But I have lost all of my believed self confidence where H and my marriage is concerned.
What did you do to get that back? Is it as simple as waking up and deciding that this is your life, here you are, H did something, but he's HERE with you.
Most days that seems pretty easy, but then I start to feel like my ol'self again and realize that SHE is the one H cheated on. Then comes the self-doubt.
I sure wish the roller coaster would slow down for a little while....
So, I am becoming very superstitious...
ouch, more endurance and did I mention patience? Could I go on? Forever."
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