My H detached from me for 5 years, but led me to believe that was devoted to me. I thought we were in the top 3% of happily married couples. I was going through a difficult time for several important reasons when he started detaching. We are in recovery for 21 months. The emotional and physical affair lasted 4 ½ years. We had been married almost 7 years, lived together a year, and dated 1 ½ years before that. There were many heart wrenching details to the affair, many of which I discovered on my own. My H thinks it would have gone on indefinitely until some kind of outside force intervened. This was largely because he didn't know how to get out of it--he says he only thought he loved her for about 2 years (though he misled her about his feelings as well) then it was more like a rut or an undesired smoking habit. Well, an outside force did intervene. He was fired from his job and had to move far away. He says that the physical affair ended 2 months before he left.
That job had a slow agonizing death. We both think that it was probably how I was able to support him through that mess (even though it meant leaving the lights of my life, my granddaughter and daughter) and her deficiency in that area that led him to realize that I was his best friend and good for him. He says that he never stopped loving me. We were going to travel back often so I think it possible that the physical affair would have resumed but been infrequent.
The every-chance-they-had exchange of sexually charged love letters only ended because I found out the 1st week he was on the new job. I was still living in the old city getting ready to move. I must say though that for every letter she wrote him he has ended up writing a volume to me. (I read all of her letters--IMHO, I write much better love letters ). He didn't save his letters to her, I'm sure they would break my heart all over again if she ever did something like send them to me. I worry sometimes that he probably sounded just as sincere and heartfelt with her. I wish she would send them to me because I do best with facing the worst and finding a way to get over it. Honestly though, I'm sure that after a little while longer that wish will be irrelevant. ....but I digress....
Anyway, the poignancy of parts of his letters to me felt like the vibration that a loud bass guitar gives your chest. There were tough letters but they were honest and there were also exquisite letters.
My H committed to our marriage, to the fullest extent that he understood at the time, with our first conversation. He was relieved to at least have the secrecy part over. Also at that first conversation I now know I realized, with the benefit of the hindsight provided by every step of this journey, that I saw for a fraction of a second 1. that we could make it and 2. how we were going to make it. Extending that brief glimpse into being most of the time has been rough. One of the big reasons why recovery is so hard is because you worry it might be phony.
I am very happy to say that, particularly with the help of Retrovaille, we both understand much better what being committed means. We have truly rediscovered each other and guess what? We are deeply in love--the real thing with all the extras. We both wish with all our hearts that we could have gotten here a different and better way, but our marriage is better than we knew marriage could be. Do we still have tough days? Ooooh Yes. But they are fewer.
Let me tell you a little more about us. First my H. My H is the gentlest man I have ever known. He also has an exceptionally high sense of ethics and too high expectations of himself. He was severely emotionally and physically abused by an all controlling dad and my dear H was under his thumb until he met the man that has been his most important professional mentor. This man was like an angel for my H. Without even being very personal in how he did it, this man was the ideal emotional father figure for my H AND nurtured his professional skills and growth. He has continued to actively support my H along with all his other graduates over the years in his same wonderful way. So my H was very late bloomer.
The hard part about our tragedy for him has been that he failed himself. He has been as hurt personally by it all as much as I have. He needs to be constantly reminded that he has become a much better person in spite of all this. And he really is a wonderful person.
Now me. I was a late bloomer too in many ways, hoo-boy is that a long story. A quick way to understand me is my Myers Briggs personality test type. I'm an INFJ. One of the main qualities of this personality type is that we are excellent at figuring people out. I tend though to see the best and to be confused by the worst in people.
Their have been several very difficult parts of this tragedy for me. They stem from having been so completely wrong in my perception of reality. Figuring out how in the world to even partially trust this person with my heart, and most of all how to reset my reality gauge has seemed impossible at times. If you'd really like to see how hard it's been look at my history of posts. I really have come a long way.
For me it has been like barely surviving having all of my body burned. I feel frankly like every part of me has been badly disfigured but I'm alive, I'm loved, I am going to make a full recovery and function normally, and I am most of all, profoundly grateful. Dramatic but it is the truth.
This may incur disapproval here, but in our particular case, I'm glad I didn't find this and other web sites before that first conversation. I have no ability to live in the same house with the man I've always loved with all my heart if he is lying to me. It is more about the lying than even having any kind of affair. (I've written here before that took me 17 years of single life and soulful looking to find him.) Perhaps it is because I'm rare or weak or maybe it's just because we don't have children together. I wouldn't jump to divorcing him, but we'd have to live apart. Perhaps if I suspected something it would be different. Maybe if I were younger... However at 46, at the time, and after 7 years of marriage, 5 of which were false, it was the correct path for me to go straight for asking for a no contact letter. I was clear, direct, kind, loving, calm (for that conversation, unfortunately calm is not always my MO ), and most of all absolutely certain (I'm overqualified for the job of single person, not my first choice, painful, but OK). He wrote the letter the next day. He gave an excuse that she was out of town for the next week. I said "So what?" I wanted to move on with our lives and that was step one--it had nothing to do with her.
I believe that my H always loved me but did not know how to communicate his needs. Being a very independent, stubborn, and, OK I'll say it, a rather self-righteous person myself complicated matters . It is so interesting because my H deeply admired my hard won sense of self-worth so this very trait (that needed a bit of modification ) actually helped to save us too. All this stubbornness, shall we say impeded my listening ability. It is so important to learn to listen extremely well. I learned how to do this at Retrovaille.
I'm delighted to add that, though these months have been the most difficult of my life, there have also been some very precious moments both personally and as a couple. Thinking about my "self-esteem" reminds me of when I played a tape of Maya Angelo reading Phenomenal Woman at top volume, over the phone to my H. In all the fury that covers my insecurities, I really do love myself in a good way. (I highly recommend the taped version of this wonderful poem for all women and the men that love them.) I could write a book about this pain but I could also write one about the wonder and joy of this journey too!!! Finally, I'm starting to get to the point of wanting to write the latter book.
So...can a long term affair be survived??? ABSOLUTELY. Might is be the tougher than you could ever imagine??? As the old 8 ball would say, YOU CAN COUNT ON IT. Can it be worth all that effort??? YOU BET. What has worked for me and us?
1. Attitude: patience, endurance, patience, listening skills, patience, honesty, developing skills at supporting my H when he tells me negative feelings, lots more patience, realizing my faults, tons of patience for that one, learning how not to be controlling ouch, more endurance and did I mention patience? Could I go on? Forever.
2. Retrovaille. Going through the whole thing with my whole heart, no matter how my H handled it. Had we gone early on, I'm certain our journey would have been shorter and less painful. We'd still be burn victims but for us this was the ultimate Shock Trauma unit. Why do I have such a high opinion of this route? Because it is completely private and between the couple alone. You get tools and extemely general guidelines but you do all the work with the best part of yourselves so it is exactly suited to you as a couple. Are they giving me a kick-back ? No. But we did make a donation to them so they could offer it to other people for free.
3. Antidepressant medication. Know I won't need it for the long term but I need it now.
4. A few good psychotherapists for myself and as a couple. (For numbers 2-4 I would rather eat peanut butter every night than do without them.)
5. Several books. To be honest, Private Lies by Frank Pittman helped me the most, especailly in the early days. Reading about forgiveness helped too.
6. Many of Michele's ideas, especially focusing on self development and "changing the pattern" (still learning about these).
7. Sites like this.
Would love to hear how others are recovering and what's working.
[This message has been edited by alottolearn (edited 04-02-2001).]
Thank you for sharing your story, thak you for givng us hope.
What you describem especialy about the prsonality of your H and your attitude, and what had happened, is os, much similar to my situation. My H has all the high qualities you described, and he has a srogn sense of guilt about what he did and, perhaps, about what he is doing, and I suspect, about what he will do (what he won't be able to not to do ) in the future. He sees as one of his most serious sins is feeling useless and hopeless, about everything and always. He has changed, though -- but only to some extent.
He never knew what a family should be (abusive parents, wrong first marriage), and his motto is "I want to be alone" which he has -- but doesn't seem to be very happy with it.Work, work, and work -- that's all he knows. And his work is very creative, so he really gets involved with it. The rest doesn't exist. But I think that he is simply afraid to try things if he can fail, so being scared of failure in marrige, he never tried to really build it and after what he did, I suspect, he feels too fuilty (and even more scared of failure) to begin again.
I have been doing what you desribe her (attitude, shrink, anti-depresants, books) and even more -- giving him time and space and working seriously on myself, inside and outside. Went to seminars, learned psychology, meditated, grew up, became independent.
My question to you: what was that that brought you together after all?
Our situation: after eparating for 18 months completely (only e-mails and phone calls), we began seing each other, but only in a year it came to a point where we really want to see each other and become more and more warm with each other. But the pattern has established which I don't know how to break: he calls and says he wants to spend time with me -- I agree -- we go out for dinner -- he is silent -- he calls and says that we should do something good together on a weekend -- I agree -- the weekend comes, he never calls -- I don't call either -- he calls and says he would like to see me... and so on.
If I don't call -- he doesn't. If I am "mysterious" -- he never asks questions. If I invite him -- he say "maybe" and most of the tiem it doesnt happen. If he invites me and I refuse -- he backs off. If he feels lonely and needs to talk he says it so that I immediately run to the rescue.
I feel we are stuck, and every other day I am tempted to finish it all. But I do love him and I know that I don't want anyone else instead. If I make a sharp move, like LRT, I can ruin all the good that had been achieved so far, after 3.5 years. If I do nothing -- it looks like it will last like this forever.
ILM, Hi again. Maybe you should take a risk and show him something like you just posted. After 3 years, I would think you have both had time to clear your heads and should be ready to have the dreaded OR about where each of you stand. Whatever the outcome, it is time for you to be free again.
This is alternative B. I take it you did not like my idea to propose.
Do you think you could hold onto the compassionate view (and betcha accurate) you describe above during the OR talk Kent suggests? This attitude is much like my H's. It would be important for you to be your best honest self (sounds like you know that).
Is there any chance whatsoever of getting him to Retrouvaille? It is a great program for personalities like our H's. It's like a lovingly guided, starting out slow, limited in length and content OR talk. It's honest with self and understanding of the spouse.
He sounds depressed (as I'm sure you'll agree). Any chance he'd look into meds? Is there someone else who would encourage this that he might listen to?
Just reviewed TomM's Understanding the process post under staying solution focused. I realize that with out having any idea what I was doing, it was exactly the way that my H started reattaching to me and detaching from the OW while continuing in the affair. It is very fortunate that I didn't know what was going on because at that time due to valid circumstances, 60%explained above, I would have left him.
I was very fortunate that the process was broken into two segments for me. I didn't have to live with an ongoing affair, nor did we intentionally separate, we just happened to be between two far off cities when the proverbial s*!# hit the fan. The soul searching and finding the path has been more painful but less difficult with my eyes opened.
ALTL
[This message has been edited by alottolearn (edited 04-02-2001).]
I am thinking all the time about saying it all. I have it in writing (25 pages) also because that's right -- I know that HOW I say it matters, and I am not sure I can refrain from tears (this is my weak spot). But perhaps, all I need to say is "I miss you. I can be without you, but I don't want to. And I do want us to build a new world, and I can show you how".
Kent, I am thinking about your idea to propose quite often. And I don't want to be "free" -- deep inside I feel that we are just playing too long some kind of a stupid game, where the main rule is "H is stubborn". Freedom can mean that I failed just when he was about to wake up (that's how it happened before when I did not udnerstand that the process was already going inside him)
ALTL,
Retrouvaille -- definitely no. He is agains this kind of stuff because he is VERY intelligent, and he not only reads and studies anything that interests him (and MLC and relationships belong to those topics), but he also thinks a lot and in most of thos subjects he studies he can be a better teacher. He is very intuitive and very well understand human personality, including his own and mine. So, if he senses that he is not about to learn anything new and that he is wasting his time going through something he know, it won't work. He is also shy, he has no time, blah-blah, and above all -- he never said he wants to work on our marrige.
Well, I jus tlied -- he was saying this four years ago, even told me that I bagan to change rapidly and he is watching me, for he doesn't want to be with me old but with me new -- yes. But alas! -- a year later, after he got his space, he said that we never were really married, that he never wanted to be a husband and never made one. I said, though "maybe, you will want in the future...", and he said "maybe" -- but what do those words mean three years later?
However, he never attempted D, and when I was insiting on that, told me "be sure that you're doing what you really want" -- and I did not do anything.
He Is depressed. Always had been. Knows that and will never admit that. Thinks that if he seeks help, he willl use artificial help instead of his own resources. But even if he does anything about it, he does is infrequently and slowly.
[This message has been edited by ILM (edited 03-25-2001).]
Sorry I didn't write you back sooner especially since some of this really got me thinking. You write that some of what you're reporting is info from years ago. Now take this with a grain of salt because I don't know a lot about your story...but...While I appreciate that you don't want to cry all the time, occasionally letting it all hang out is what even a friendship is about. How sad it would be if not opening up about your loving, genuinely concerned about him as a friend, feelings is keeping you apart. You are right that it's how you say it--not what you say.
About Retrouvaille, last plug. I promise . It is about authentically telling each other your feelings in a nonthreatening way. It my not something your H is willing to do but you never know...Lately heard about a trial lawyer who talked for 45 minutes at a weekend about how he was convinced that the weekend wouldn't help at all and was he ever surprised! Then his wife got up and talked 35 minutes about how significant it was that he was relating all that. My H is a research physician and an atheist--he loves it. OK, that's all from me on that topic.
I think, I am quite open about my good feelings towards him -- I am always supporting, always encoraging him, he comes when he needs to vent or seeks ancouragement, or has problems to think about together.
But when he decides to "disappear"... I immediately remember that he "wanted to be alone" and don't remind about myself. Sometimes I would, but if there is no follow -up, what can I do?
..unfortunately, I AM crying all the time, every day -- when he moves into "being alone" state. I forget all those baby steps, I forget all the "memingful" things he said...
I so much want him to know what it is for me, this single life -- and I kow I will never tell him because how I feel is my responsibility, and he doesn't need to know the expenses of keeping the smile on my face.
The most difficult task for me -- to show my weakness without being perceived as being weak. I know some women who do it brilliantly: she is not just a martyr, she is weak and suffering, but "she never shows it!", and she is struggling, she is so weak and so strong! Men buy it, I've seen many -- I wish I could learn the technique
A brainstorming idea: How about if you start a topic in this section that is titled something like "positive things ILM's H has said" to help you remember them? Don't write anything negative in that topic, not even any figuring things out, just the good stuff. I'll sign up to be a cheerleader
That disappearing thing must be mighty tough. What would happen if you let him know that you will need to take a step away from him and love him from afar if he can't follow through on plans? That you won't be able to provide emotional support when he needs to talk at least for a set time if he is unable to honor plans you make. Of course this needs to be said very calmly or it might be better to write it in a letter? You may have already tried this kind of thing. You've sure been at this a long time. Don't give up trying new ideas, one probably will dislodge your impasse. ALTL
[This message has been edited by alottolearn (edited 04-02-2001).]
). He didn't save his letters to her, I'm sure they would break my heart all over again if she ever did something like send them to me. I worry sometimes that he probably sounded just as sincere and heartfelt with her. I wish she would send them to me because I do best with facing the worst and finding a way to get over it. Honestly though, I'm sure that after a little while longer that wish will be irrelevant. ....but I digress.... 
myself complicated matters 
