Well, I haven't been around here for a while in spite of promising an update after doing the Fresh Start with Michele.
Frankly, there hasn't been much to report. I have followed the teachings of DB, I am a very different person and have tried "acting as if" and doing it 'differently' from every angle I can think of. I am happy in myself and at peace. However, I have run out of anything new to do.
My problem is this. I'm going to say the same thing that I have said many times regardless of being shot down about it. He doesn't move beyond superficial. He cannot or will not see that he must do more than buy me presents, make cups of coffee, enquire how I am, etc. etc. He thinks that doing those things should make everything right. That kind of attention is nice and I am appreciative but I need more than that from him.
I have been emotionally blank for the past couple of days and all he can think is that I must be ticked off and/or really angry. He rationalises this way - he hasn't done anything wrong so there is no reason for my behaviour. He is right and I am wrong. That's the way he thinks. I am not a product of the past 15 years (and I don't mean emotionally reactive because of the past)I am simply here and now, disconnected to anything that has gone on between us at any time and only related to his present behaviour. If he is smiling and happy, then I should be too, irrespective of how I actually and really feel.
I have treated him the way I would like him to treat me - that doesn't work because he doesn't see that I am giving him something different to what he is giving me.
I can recognise the fact that he cannot love me the way I would like to be loved because he does not love himself and he isn't a happy person. I have tried to help him discover why that is and what he could do about it. I have encouraged him to try and think about things differently because this relationship needs him to adopt a perspective of "being in my shoes". I've said 'how would you feel if I'd said/done that to you'but the only response I get is from his head not his heart.
And I keep hearing that he has changed and when I ask what, I get "I don't do.....any more" about a couple of things. When I ask what he is doing differently or instead of that, I get silence.
He hasn't changed except that he keeps his anger and outrage under control for a little longer. I have discussed with him what I need, I have discussed what our relationship needs. Yet I still get the same thing said to me "Can't we just get on with living". What he means is carry on like nothing has ever happened or been said between us. Not a clean slate, just leaving him alone to be as he is. That would be fine, but the only way that goes is into conflict. I keep my mouth shut, keep things pleasant until I am pushed too far and his behaviour is totally unacceptable. Then we get into a fight. The same circle of conflict that has gone on for years. Yes, I can avoid it, walk away and say nothing but I cannot live happily with it.
I suppose the bottom line is that if he won't make himself happy or do anything to make this relationship better, then the only option I have is to get out. I firmly believe there is a reason for his behaviour and the way he treats me, a reason for why he isn't happy but I can't fix that. He must choose for himself that he wants things differently and find the reasons for himself about why he should change his thinking and his behaviour.
Example from last night. "I like your new hairdo, it is much softer and you look younger." Followed straight on with "I didn't like the way it was before, it made you look just like your mother." Note, I have been growing my hair from very short and have had to put up with whatever I could do to it to make it presentable. I asked why he had had to say that and he said why couldn't I just focus on the nice thing he said about it. Am I just supposed to filter out everything apart from the nice things he says or the good things he does? Are they the only things that are supposed to affect me?
I'm feeling very fed up with the fact that all the work I've done has come to nothing and I know if I stop all the effort I am putting in that the relationship will fold. All the responsibility for everything working is put on me. I want more than just going through the motions, I want more than presents and smiles. I want him to work at making a connection, giving me back at least some of what I have been giving to him. And I don't know how to do that. I think the only way he will appreciate what he's got is when he doesn't have me and even then he will think that he's just fine the way he is, no changes required, kisses and cuddles and presents make everything just great.
That's my update for now but no doubt there will be words said later tonight. After all, I'm wrong and he will have plenty to say about that.
something in your posting feels similar to what I am going through so far, and what I realized myself -- H is "afraid" of me, he said it many times before that I can "hit" unexpectedly. when he expects it the least. I could not understand what he had in mind, now I can recall many episodes from our life when he would say or do something, trusting my current behavior, and I would unpredictably change to the opposite and "punish" him for trusting me.
What you say here, about your hairstyle discussion, sound like one of those examples: "Example from last night. "I like your new hairdo, it is much softer and you look younger." Followed straight on with "I didn't like the way it was before, it made you look just like your mother." Note, I have been growing my hair from very short and have had to put up with whatever I could do to it to make it presentable. I asked why he had had to say that and he said why couldn't I just focus on the nice thing he said about it. Am I just supposed to filter out everything apart from the nice things he says or the good things he does? Are they the only things that are supposed to affect me?"
Imagine that he hoped that he can talk to you as to a friend, who he can confess what's really on his mind, not to always wear a mask of politeness. You just proved he was wrong! Instead of trying to understand him, you overreacted.
Can this be the case why he is so cautious in moving closer to you? Maybe he just feels safer making you coffee than really getting into intimate conversations.
When I overeact and "punish" my H. for saying something I did not want to hear, I know it brings us months back, and I regret it deeply...
And yes, you are "supposed" to filter out what he says -- at least, if you want to move forward, not back -- to filter out and in what you need to react to and what you need to think about.
Allow for the posibility for yourself to misunderstand what he says, not only for him to say wrong things...
Joanne, I know you desperately want things to be wonderful in order to erase all the misery you put with from your h for years, not to mention the affair(s), and all the rest. (I only sketchily remember your details, so sorry if I get it incorrect.) But your h is himself. You can change habits, but not personalities. It's possible he is a complainer, or negative. It's also possible he is really afraid to open himself to you. I know it is so hard to see yourself from inside your own skin (I have a really hard time with this myself), but from where I stand, it sounds like he wants to compliment you, but he also doesn't want to make himself too vulnerable to you either, so he adds that he didn't like your hair before. It's also possible that he is just explaining his position -- some people just talk too much because they don't know what else to say. Maybe he felt there weren't enough words when he said he liked your haircut.
As for the kisses, cuddles, and ILUs, there's lots of us on the board who'd kill to be there. Don't give up, Joanne. I sense you're a bit like me. You;'ve been so hurt in the past, you're really afraid to make yourself vulnerable in case he slamdunks you again (to use GG's words). You really have to make yourself vulnerable and open. Remember what Michele says about focusing on the positives, and complimenting them for positives -- ie I'm glad you like my new hairdo. And forget that he said the rest. Ignore it. Eventually, he may just feel comfortable saying what he likes, and not have to followup with what he didn't like. I have been in negative mode myself for the past few months, because I haven't seen much change in my h, but if I look back and am really honest with myself, there have been changes. I remember he used to love buying me clothes, but that hadn't happened for a veyr long time. This Christmas he said he wanted to take me out to buy clothes (I just thought it was laziness on his part, so I said no, I didn't need anything.) He bought me a lovely sweater, but I didn't give it much thought until yesterday. It really was my h's way of saying he cares. He seems unable to say he's sorry and he'll change, because he's said it so many times, he thinks I'll probably throw it back in his face. (Now it's also possible, he's just poking his head out of the tunnel only to retreat again, but I need to focus on positives. So do you.)
You also said you are sick of doing all the work. Right. So Stop! Do Nothing! I, too, got sick of reading all the relationship books, seeing where I was responsible for problems, seeing where h was responsible for problems, but it was happening in a void. He wasn't doing anything. He knew I was reading the books, knew I was making changes, but I was also doing all the fretting, all the changing, all the work. I'm too tired, and worn out to do it anymore, so I've let it go. I don't really care anymore. If the marriage fails, so be it. I've done what I could. And, it's possible that my h is going to feel the relief that I've stopped working on HIM! Give yourself a break -- you've been through the mill, and you're still holding up the fort. Leave it for awhile, and do just for you. Let h muddle along. You can figure out something different -- for one thing don't call him on his responses. He's going to get so nervous about what you're calling him on, that he won't be able to respond at all, and when he does he'll fill the silence with silly prattle, like I didn't like the way your hair was before. I think you are making him a bit nervous. I only say this because I think I've done the same thing to my h -- he's a bit afraid to say or do anything, because I'll call him on it. That doesn't mean you don't say what needs to be said on certain things, but like with your kids, pick and choose your battles, and remember the war.
The holidays may have you down, especially when you read about certain success stories, but all those success stories are still struggling with the warts and freckles of their spouses, that will always be there.
Joanne, No need to apologize for a negative post, it's what you're feeling. But I do have to tell you that your post brings back all the memories of how YOU used to communicate with your husband. Maybe you've done this already, but I really wish you would re-read our thread again. You were much more realistic and clear about your wishes. I think you've slipped...which might explain why your husband has slipped too.
Look, he will never be you. HE will never have the need to communicate on a deep level all the time. It isn't going to happen. If that's what you need, you're wasting your time. He's him. He's different. You need to get those deeper communication needs met with friends and other family members. Don't put all your communication eggs in one basket.
Plus, sure he's unhappy. He's unhappy because the woman he loves finds most of his behavior unacceptable and shallow. Wouldn't you be unhappy too?
I've worked with lots of couples who have the same pattern as you and your husband. It's frustrating to watch because the husband usually wants to please his wife, but keeps missing the mark.
If you simply can not accept your husband for who he is, you should probably stop hurting him with your criticisms. I see him as a man who wants to please you and love you. I could be wrong. It's hard to read between the lines.
Anyway, you know I care about you Joanne. Please let me know if you have re-read our thread and what you think about it. HAve you stopped being solution-focused? Divorce is always an option, just not a good one. MIchele
Thanks everyone for the replies. Accept his limitations and filter out what isn't good. I do accept his limitations, I do accept him for who he is, I have a problem with my filter, it's a bit clogged.
As for PMA, it disappears from time to time, I'm not perfect and I'm not particularly good at putting on a false front i.e acting fine all the time.
However, I'm also like the kids toy, the one with the weighted bottom so that when you hit it from any angle, it bounces back to centre.
Michele I write my pent up frustrations, that is my way of dealing with myself, making myself think. Yes, I am aware that my post is full of ways I used to talk about my situation. However, it's not a replica of my behaviour. You may say though that it is evidence of my thinking.
Perhaps it is. Yes, he wants to please me and yes he wants to love me. Yes, I need to talk. I talk to other people and am good at building relationships. I do behave really well, am a kind and loving friend, I can talk objectively and keep all emotions under control. Do I criticise? Yes, but in a kind and loving way. I don't slam criticisms at him. Even when we end up in a fight, I don't approach the subject accusingly, I do it quietly and objectively and aim to discuss what happened so that the problem can be resolved.
I'm human, when I'm hurt and those hurts pile up on a daily basis, I can't always walk away as if they just don't matter.
I do things differently, I keep finding different ways of doing and saying. There are changes, little ones and I know it's little steps at a time and they all add up but I consistently get one step today and then tomorrow it's all back to the day before. It's hard to stay positive when one day you have one person and the next day it's another and it has nothing to do with anything that's going on.
I would like to explain myself better but I'm out of time today. I'll get back here when I can.
Back again. AlexN, there is a lot of truth in what you are saying. Michele is right as well. I have allowed myself to drift because for me it is so simple to say I'll do something and just do it and I do get very frustrated at being told again and again that X will happen and then it doesn't. I think I have got to the stage where I'm simply fed up being good all the time and being criticised when I fall down irrespective if he's doing nothing to change anything about his behaviours. It's not easy to hang onto not playing the blame game when it is being played against you all the time. When right and wrong are his principles of choice and you are doing everything in your power to do that all differently with no rights and wrongs. It's hard to be aware that you are talking without blaming and to be told that you are trying to blame them just because that's the way they want to hear it.
Yes, I am aware that I am complicating everything with my negativity at the moment and I am looking at that. Turn around time again. I shall have to dig in to my detachment again and put myself back on track in a more positive way. I'm doing that already. Realisation hit me hard the other day when he said he was frightened of me. That came like a bolt of lightning. Time to look at my intentions and aims again as I am apparently going in the wrong direction. I get too fired up about things sometimes and it for sure is working against me. He says he knows what he has to do so once again I will shut up and let him sort himself out. I'm trying to hard to be a fixer again. As Michele says, that's not clever. So time to look at and change my game plan in spite of the fact that this is looking like a life's work. I know, one day at a time, one step at a time. I should shut up and slow down. I'd better get on with it.
Joanne, I know only too well about the blame game. I have been at this for two years, hard and fast, and have heard all the speeches, all the things that are wrong with our marriage (all the while being careful to say he's not "blaming" me, but if he were with someone different he'd be much happier). I have heard the I don't love you anymore, the I don't know if I'm staying or leaving, I've been the responsible one, not leaving because I'm doing the right thing. I've worked very hard on making changes in myself, though I suspect the changes I've made have not been quite on the mark. Despite all this, he has now announced he IS leaving, but still trying to do it nicely, so his reputation doesn't get tarnished. There was a major EA for about three years, but now I suspect there's a potential PA in the wings with someone different. He has been looking actively for the past two years for a soulmate to replace the one he had with his EA.
Now, despite periodic protestations that he loves me and appreciates the fact that I waited, was patient and so on, he says he must move on, and that we have nothing going for us (he forgets the two kids and 15 years). He tells me he feels tenderly towards me, loves me even, but that is all and he needs more. Isn't that what people in amrriages aim for? A tender feeling after so many years, knowing the other cares for your well-being? I have no choice but to let him go, of course, and let him find his bliss. That's what I mean by trying to encourage and foster the tender feeligns your h has for you. Don't dicount them -- he wants to be there, that's a terrific start. I'd give my eye teeth to have my h say he wants to be here, and wants to preserve what we have. We have problems, for sure, and many of them attributable to me, but when I look at other marriages, we have precious little to complain about. By his own admission, we negotiate well, we have many of the same values, we have a great sex life, but we he keeps claiming we don't communicate, probably on the level he wishes to. For me, I find it difficult to communicat with him, and reveal myself, because I know he doesn't want me. If there were a turnaround and he wanted to preserve the marriage I could open up more. He has amnesia about the times we have talked for hours, about his work, mine, analysing his past and mine, and so on. The bottom line is the will to be here is non-existent. At least you have a place to start, because his will is there. He WANTS to do it. He maybe needs a little encouragement in the right areas. If you could create an atmosphere of openness and total acceptance, I would bet that he would open even more. I know this last year was particularly hard for both of you, with the death of your daughter, and my heart goes out to you. Everyone grieves in different ways, a friend told me once.
Thank you AlexN for pointing out that I am being rather ungrateful for what I've got. No that's not me being cynical or sarcastic. It does help sometimes to come to this board and feel again that you are in a better position than others. It helps kick your humility back into check. I've been lied to for most of my marriage, he basically sent me away and had an affair, and then our worst nightmare happened when our daughter died. I know there is an enormous empty space in my life and there is nothing I can do about that. Maybe I am trying too hard to pull us together so that I can at least feel better about one thing in my life. Life doesn't stand still for your grief, it keeps on going whether you want it to or not. People think I'm wonderful the way I have 'coped'. Thing is, you don't cope with it. It is simply a part of your life for the rest of your life. I'm not taking that out on him, I couldn't do that because this is the second time this has happened to him. He lost a child in his first marriage and now it has happened again.
But for me, well I know that there are times when I need a little help to get me on track. That wasn't my intention when I posted, at least not consciously, but I am grateful that it worked out that way. It is so easy sometimes to get bogged down in the everyday things and forget about the big picture and I appreciate the reminders.
I shall make it my foremost aim to be more appreciative of what I have and verbalise it much more often. I know I need to do that and I know it makes a difference when I do it. So why am I being stupid? Just feeling sorry for myself and that is something I really don't like so I shall stop it immediately.
Jo, Sorry to bust in here. I cruise here every now and then thinkin I should move here as I to am caught up in the struggle of keeping a PMA grip while trying to work with W to pull our M out of a hole.
It's still a roller coaster ride. The difference is it tends to head slightly uphill on average. We all communicate differently. We all have different emotional needs. I think the trick is to find a happy median with our spouse that continues to allow positive progress.
I am taking W to Micheles seminar in February. I can't force her to meet my communication or emotional needs. All I can do is lay the tools in front of her face. I find that at certain times I manage to push a good button in her that makes her reach out a little. I often feel like I am trying to learn a foreign language. Trying to decipher the signals. I know one day that I will break the code. I just don't know when.
I am grateful to have reached the point where W says she loves me and wants to work on our R. Now we need to lay the groundwork for how we can accomplish this .
I posted in newcomers that I learned a lesson recently about not allowing myself to become overwelmed. I am in the process of installing some safety vents in me for the next time this feeling moves in for a sneak attack.
Sounds like I should mail you some of these safety vents as well.
Kent
[This message has been edited by KentSt (edited 01-06-2001).]
