You know, about the lawyers, and the balance point of trusting their guidance versus setting your own path - the problem is we come to these "experts" when we are lowest, when we feel weakest, when we feel most lost. We want someone to trust, someone to help us, someone to lean on. And in that state, we of troubled marriages often cede power to these people.
I feel very strongly that this is happening to my W. She is alone - she has cut herself off from her network. Not completely, you understand, but instead of daily conversations with her friends, it is now once a month, or once every 6 weeks. The people she now interacts with daily? her lawyer. Her domestic violence support group. She follows their direction. She told me as much in an email. They all agree she is the victim here. They all agree with her that her husband is an evil man. And so that's what directs her actions.
I feel the same thing sometimes. I want someone to come in and fix this for me. The situation feels so unjust. Sometimes I feel like a kid, and I want my mom or dad to come in and right this wrong, rectify the injustice. But that isn't happening. The lawyer can't do that. The counselor can't do that. No one can do that for me. So I need to rely on myself to set the path. I need to direct my lawyer instead of my lawyer directing me.
anyway that's the way I feel about it.
RTL, I like your approach of just giving her the extra things, without haggling over it. That sounds right to me. If she doesn't want you (and now she doesn't, I'm sorry), withholding a lamp isn't going to change her mind.
I also like the business-like email. Taking care of business. Gotta do that.
you asked - I guess I just need to not care if she is jealous as long as my motives are pure. Yes. absolutely. You need to do the right thing for you. Forget about her. Don't let her "feelings" direct your actions. Detach. If you want a babysitter, get one. Forget about how she will react. here's the thing: often she will unnecessarily negatively. An example is the phone call during the movie. She doesn't need to get nasty or b!tchy about it. But it sounds like she did. Oh well. Not your thing. That's her thing. Same thing with the babysitter. Maybe she'll be jealous, maybe she'll be angry, maybe she won't. Not your business. Do the right thing, and forget about what she thinks, for now.
Her reactions are going to be heavily influenced by her own state of mind, rather than what you are doing. Her negativity comes from the bad juju within her, from all the crap she is pulling. Nothing you can do about that.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but for me to be able to detach in the right way, I can't say anything that remotely brings up our marriage at any time. Correct?
Well - yeah, kinda. You have fond memories. As well you should. Nothing wrong with that. Right now your W views your shared history - the same history you're looking at - very differently. She doesn't have the fond memories. Or she has them, but they don't jive with what she's doing, so she blocks the memories right now, she denies them. Maybe you sense that, even if you've never thought of it that way. I certainly did. And in my situation, I wanted to rectify that difference. I wanted, really wanted my W to see our history the way I saw it. I felt like that was a key to reconciling. To recognize the good in our history. But that ain't happening. At some point I realized, that's a form of control, anti-detachment. I realized, she's going to think what she's going to think. And I realized, I can keep the good memories of my marriage, even if she decides to discard hers. I can keep our wedding photos, even if she wants to burn hers. I don't need to convince her to keep the photos. I don't need to change her mind about the history.
Do you need to remind her that you used to go on fun dates?
on the kissing in front of D4 question - Kerry said this teaches the child that promiscuous behavior is ok. That may be true but it is not the source of my concern. In the D4 psyche, mom&dad are one thing: mom&dad. They are together. They are one unit. And, the sense of self is still developing. She sees herself as part of a family, not really yet as a child with independent parents. When mom leaves dad, it is stressful for D4 personally. Who am I? Sure, she doesn't think that explicitly, but she will be confused about what is happening. It is important to take it slowly, for that reason. It is important that she not see mom kissing OM for that reason. it really hurts her to see this. It is very damaging to her sense of self. it is trauma. It's like beating her. Don't do it. If mom needs to kiss OM, that should be done in private.
The "this will be our little secret" is the same kind of trauma. It destroys her sense of security - one half of her (mom) is lying or keeping secrets from the other half (dad). This is not something she can deal with at this young age.
I know we said, "detach" and "forget about what your wife is doing" but this is a case where the welfare of the child is at stake. It is not ok for the child to see this. BUT, You should be careful to NOT use D4 as a way to try to control the relationship between W and OM. Your only concern is for your daughter. Be careful about using her as a pawn in the power struggle.
However you address the issue, do it with compassion and patience. Talk to some experts (I am no expert).
I wish you the best.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
RTL, one additional thought. This is coming from my own situation, which has sort of deteriorated quite a bit.
Now my wife is alleging that I have a bad relationship with my kids, that I have "always been abusive." that I "rarely played with my kids." This is a hard thing for me to hear. how do I defend myself?
I never would have guessed my W would do such a thing. (Of course I never would have guessed she'd have an affair with my best friend, either.) Anyway, my point is, I didn't have timecards showing how often I played with my kids.
Now I will. Now I will keep records of when I see them, what we did, and so on. Also I keep records of when I tried to see them and it "didn't work out" for W for me to see them. I started writing it up, retrospectively. But maybe it would be useful for you to keep that trail now.
I wish you the best in your DB efforts, but sometimes it does not work out the way you want, the marriage does not survive. if that were to happen, you will need to be with your daughter, she will need you. you can prepare for that possibility by being a great dad now, and keeping records of your parenting time & effort.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
Hey RTL, how is it going, are you ok? I forgot to say, I like the Smiths too...I've been learning Radiohead songs on the guitar tonight, I dont know if that constitutes GALing, but its fun and has burnt up hours trying to get it right! I'm not that great, but hey, its passable.
Have you taken your D back now?
Ali _________________ Me: 36 H: 34 LT: 9 years ILYBINILWY: 2 Nov 07 Own apartment: 26 Jan 08
I just dropped of D not too long ago. She was very upset and clingy when I left her. That is a good sign. We had a lot of fun over the past few days.
I gave my W basic stuff for her kitchen so they can eat along w/ a TV, DVD, and VCR. I also found two of those "camping" chairs w/ the beverage holders in the garage and sent them along so they'll have more places to sit.
She didn't come to the exchange, which was unfortunate as I'd have liked to have seen her. I sent her a text and told her giving the items was completely my call and not my Ls because I want them to have the things they need.
W replied w/ a text saying "THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE KITCHEN THINGS!" I sent her another text asking if she wanted the queen bed but didn't get a reply.
I then called at 8 to talk w/ D and W wanted to chat w/ me for a bit. I asked again about the bed, and she sheepishly said she'd like it. I told her if we get a truck I can get the bed and her dressers over to her right away.
W then told me of her plan to move to the other side of the county and of her proposal for my seeing D. She went on and on about not being able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment around here and how great the schools were on the other side of the Valley, etc.
I told her I was aware of her plans and proposal b/c I had received it from my L and that I couldn't except anything but 50/50 time. I also told her her plan was not feasible as I'd be in the car for most of my "quality parenting time."
She shot back w/ "my L says I'm being more than generous and if you want 50/50 time then you'll need to move. I shouldn't be stuck on the other side of the county to convenience you. I'm tired of driving 40 minutes each way every day." She got mad and said "You're not listening to me. If you want us to have dialogue, then you have to listen to what I'm saying."
I told her politely that I was listening, but I can't agree with her proposal. I really, really wanted to ask if the complex was the same one her and D stayed in w/ the OM, but I held back. I know that is the goal - to be closer to him -- but it leaves me out in the cold w/ my D.
She came back w/ being "stuck forever in Scottsdale", to which I repled, "you aren't stuck here, but I can't let you move to the far West Valley. I won't be able to see D that way." I told her I can't accept those terms and our Ls will have to talk or we'll need to settle it in court.
I know I can sell the house and move as well. I may even need to sell for financial reasons, but for now, it just isn't practical. I hate taking this stand, but if I don't, my D will be on the other side of the Valley and my W will be calling all the shots for her. I need to be able to have an equal right to see my D and an equal say in her education, etc. as well.
So, now I'm here posting and waiting for my D to call me back like she said she wanted to. I did start to talk to the W about financial things she needs to clear up (her IRA deductions, car insurance, etc.) so that will also mean we'll need another phone call soon.
I need to keep my venting about the relationship with the OM here. I know now they've slept together and that is killing me, but I can't talk about the OM with her at all.
On her "move to the other side of the Valley" - you are right to stick to your guns. You can validate her "I understand it's not a perfect scenario, divorce never is, but D4 needs her father. Scottsdale may not be convenient for you, the other side of the Valley is not convenient for me. So what's best for D4?"
On the OM - this is a tough pill to swallow at first, but it gets easier: he is INSIGNIFICANT. Don't make this about you, W & OM. It isn't. It's about you and W. Though on it's face, an OM makes us feel as though our manhood is diminished. It's not the case. OM has been whispering the right things in W ear. He is on his best behavior ... on stage. Sooner hopefully rather than later, he has to show his dark side. His faults. We all have them. He sure does. Just the fact he would go after someone else's W and destroy a family throws up a red flag. Give him the rope to hang himself.
These first few weeks are the toughest - but once you get through them, the DB'ing gets easier. And it may take several months for her world to unravel, to find the grass is not greener on the other side of the valley, but it will.
Just one thing to have handled differently, and in the totality, it is minor. But unfortunately, it shows neediness:
Quote:
I sent her a text and told her giving the items was completely my call and not my Ls because I want them to have the things they need.
She knows this. You don't need to point it out to her. Just do the right thing at all times and she will notice. Pointing it out to her is pressure.
And one more thing that I'm not reading in your thread that is a concern. And frankly has to be the focus for you in the next "season" you spend without W in the same house. I'm not finding what the issues inside the M were - and what RTL is doing to change things up. 180's. Becoming a better man and better father. What's your plan? Or are you going to allow your WAW to determine your fate?
Standing for your M does not mean "standing still" as so many misinterpret.
Me - 43 and She -36. No kids. Married 7 yrs - Together 14 yrs
I agree RTL! I'm interested in your 180s too...you have lots of opportunity hopefull as you will be having weekly contact with her because of your D. What can you do here?
It must be hard to accept the OM, but from what we know of him, I'm betting hes a bit arrogant. That can be attractive to woman in the short term, but thats just the "honeymoon" period, you wait till things settle down and I am sure she will see him in a different light. Plus there is D involved and you are her father, so yes, just continue to be a better father.
Hey everyone. Thank you for your comments and encouragement. It has been difficult for me to get started today.
I stayed in bed until 10:30 and I'm really in a funk. I have to do something today to get started on my GAL as I've really allowed myself to do nothing. I'm planning on cleaning up the office today and preparing all the files, etc. for taxes. That will at least be something constructive. After that, I have to find the energy to exercise and start that road again.
Ok, you have asked for me to explain my W's complaints about our marriage and what I would need to do to make this a 180. I'll see what I can list below:
#1: I have a temper. I used to turn red w/ rage as I overreacted to our arguments. I used to be very defensive in my actions and accuse my wife of setting double-standards as she would accuse me of doing the same things she did. I used to have my body tense and fists clenched and I never would let an argument die. However, I never hit her or threatened to. I have punched two walls in my life, but one was in high school and the other in college. Neither w/ my wife. I have called her a b!tch when we've fought and unfortunately have yelled at her in front of our D. This is my #1 problem as she is claiming to be "physically, emotionall, and mentally afraid of me."
#2: Low-self esteem: I spent my entire teenage and adult life beating myself up and taking every opportunity to knock myself down. My W said she was tired of trying to show me how to love myself and she wasn't sure if I could ever erase "36-years of self-hate." Thus, I've been insecure and have lacked confidence.
#3: Not giving enough to the family: W claims that other people get the "main course" and all she and D get is the "appitizer and sometimes the desert." She said I put others needs in front of my own. I will admit that I spent a lot of time at work seeking false praise to fill some emotional voids in me.
The trouble here is I was blind to all of this because I was so deep-seeded w/ denial. However, through therapy I've really come to grips with who I am and where I need to be. I have been changing and growing, but the result is W is moving away from, not toward me.
I'm not sure if she is scared by my changes or not. These are things that I can't explain or predict. All I know is I'm a bit shattered and I'm sliding backward because of the divorce. I was doing very, very well and my confidence was high until being served on the 5th. I've been swimming upstream since then.
I also realized that I've erred w/ DBing because I told her what my plans were to work on me instead of just doing them and showing her. This worked for roughly 2 days as she was a bit scared that I'd take off and be on my own, but then she went to counseling and got pissed at some of the suggestions I told her I was planning.
When I returned from DC, she claimed to be going to work on Sunday to catch up, but spent the entire day with OM and it is here that I'm sure he convinced her to file the divorce papers, which she did four days later.
I also just got an e-mail from one of my friends telling me that my compassion is only working to screw me over and will end up in my losing my house and all my money in the process. She is questioning why I'm dragging this out as my W has had this planned for a long time and her and her L are being aggressive and they'll probably get everything they want and leave me with nothing. She wants to know when I'm going to get mad and fight.
I'm struggling with this here. Am I being a doormat by refusing to get ugly with my W? If I give in and agree, I lose my D. I'm probably going to lose the house. I know that, but I don't want to lose it right away.
I have an e-mail from W that says her plan is to stay on this side of town until summer, then look to move to the West Valley. Now she wants to move in a couple of weeks. I'm hoping I can use the original e-mail to keep them here for now so I can see my D more than a few times a month.
I've got to go and try to GAL and be productive today. It is hard when the only shade that fits me is BLUE, but I've got to figure it out somehow.
I'm fighting with feeling that my marriage is over for good. It keeps popping into my head that she is not only gone, but will never look back. I am afraid that once she sees her mistake, she won't have the courage to return b/c she'll be too embarassed.
I am having a lot of trouble with hope and keeping it alive. I really, really am.
On the other hand, I am doing something productive. I've decided to get out of my bed clothes (it is after 1 pm here, for crying out loud) and I'm sorting through our files for taxes. That alone is productive and will help me to motivate today.
Ok, that is it for the present. Need to continue being productive and working harder than ever to keep the hurricane around me from blowing out my little tiny candle of hope.
Do something nice for yourself - as RTL the man, not RTL the husband, or RTL the father. Something just for you. (Sorting out taxes doesn't count! wink!)
