Meredith - your 5 years..

[cagzmom]

Weird thign. I too have been stuck in the rut of "I was so happy..." well that was then and this is now and I tell you what the NOW of living back then is not such a happy place.

One thing is happening. I think I am going through another stage of grieving. Man this sucks! A girlfriend of mine told me she has watched me and watched the onion peel. And as it has been time for another layer---- strip it goes (NOT THE CLOTHES PEOPLE!!) This stripping has been different. Saddness...not like the deep weepings or the curling up in fetal postion..just sad. Letting go...and I tell you what my heart is holding on for "Dear Life.." but it doesn't realize that in holding on I feel the death trap.

I think going dark - real real real dark is key for me. And this is funny. For such a long time (ok so a week can be a long time in this journey) but for awhile not calling,texting or emailng H was not hard. BUT NOW ---Now that I have made A CONSIOUS descion....oh yeah it has been REALLY HARD. looking for emails - hoping he will call etc etc and WANTING to touch base with him. I KNOW what it is I RECOGNIZE it. IT IS ME reaching again ---- and I AM NOT DOING it this time. It doesn't serve me well at all.

My mom gave me a good thing a little while back. I was telling her about the thoughts that "loom" you know them. "I will never love again.", "I only want to be with H" "I love H- why doesn't he come home.." You know them....What she said was so good. WE HAVE TO FIGHT THE BATTLE in OUR MIND....so what have I begun to do??? I LITERALLY SAY aloud (if possible) THOUGHT you have not served me well...I will say it over and over till it is gone.. It works. OF COURSE I have to fight again and again but I can tell you that since starting this it has helped.

Soooo "THOUGHT OF I only new happiness with H - you aren't serving me well you need to leave!"

[cagzmom]

Yes, I see what you are saying. You WERE happy. Now you're not. You want what you had, darn it.

Okay, well that's good. Except, no. Just because you were happy then doesn't mean that you cannot be happy now, in this different life. It's not going to be easy, but it's possible!

THAT IS GOOD --- and such a GREAT reminder. If we were to EVER be with our H again it will have to be NEW and FRESH. The old is DEAD.

That said, THIS is where I struggled too:

Still SO afraid of moving forward, because it would feel too much like "giving up."

I was NOT giving up on my marriage, come hell or high water. I WAS NOT. Yeah. It didn't work.

Ok my friend - you hit IT ON THE head again. That is where I have been since day 1. And you are right...one person can NOT A MARRIAGE SAVE. Last week all week I listened to OUTSTANDING counsel on marriage..outstanding workshop ideas etc. BUT HERE IS THE DEAL --- if your h or w doesn't want to work on it then you CANT WORK ON IT!! That is what I think I am FINALLY getting into my skull and to be honest what so many awesome people on this board have said. WORK ON Cagzmom!!!

So, stop about the marriage. What if he died? What if you found out you had cancer? It would suck, right? Of course. But you wouldn't have a choice, you wouldn't be able to say, "NO". You would be forced to live your life - and put on a positive outlook.

Ok if i think about him dieing often am I a bad girl???

Cagzmom up there finds happiness in running. I would die trying. My favorite workout is pilates. We're different, but have the same goal - clear head, physical fitness, wellbeing. There has to be SOMETHING you're interested in. SOMETHING that makes you want to get up in the morning. Not SOMEONE, mind you

.

Been thinking lots about that again - and how to fit the "me" time in. It is hard for us because we are in limbo-- so we aren't single and we aren't married..to find the place we fit (ie in church or support groups) can be tough. BUT I need to look outside of that. Where do I fit? I don't know..but I am ready to try...(And this has taken an entire year to get to!! GOOD GRIEF!!

I found ME!

[/quote]

And here is a funny thought -- that is who they fell in love with. Not saying that that will happen again....but it is ironic.

[CMNM]

Now that I have made A CONSIOUS descion....oh yeah it has been REALLY HARD. looking for emails - hoping he will call etc etc and WANTING to touch base with him. I KNOW what it is I RECOGNIZE it. IT IS ME reaching again ---- and I AM NOT DOING it this time. It doesn't serve me well at all.

We've all been there. I know that I practically wore the buttons off my phone checking for texts or messages that were not there. And, in that state of mind, if we did end up talking I was sad and mopey because he just wasn't saying what I wanted him to say! I just couldn't get it through my head that these talks that I wanted so badly to happen were not helping, at all.

I love your dialogue with your thoughts. You are so right, they do need to leave.

Cagzmom- I have been through hell with my H. The worst of it is when he decided that he didn't love me, probably never did. (His exact words) Ugh. That hurt more than anything.

3 looooooong years later, here we are in a totally different place. The ONLY way this came about was letting go. Meredith told me this ages ago, but it had to happen on my own time, just like it will happen in yours. Don't be hard on yourself. You will slip up here and there, but it will get better in time. Eventually you will love yourself so much you will wonder if he is even worth your time!

Oh, and the guy who never loved me? Well, today we were IMing (his idea for us to be able to chat throughout the day). I didn't realize it, but after I responded to him I got logged off and he wasn't able to keep the conversation going. I figured he got busy with work and didn't think anything of it.

Later on he called. He said, "what happened to you?" He said something about responding to my statement and it saying that I was logged off. I jokingly said, "oh man, who was I talking to, then?" (It was kind of a steamy convo). He said, "I hope there's not some other guy out there in love with you, too."

Hmmmmm.....

I acted like I didn't hear it. I just kept talking. But I am tucking that away.

No, I am not promising that letting go will result in getting your H back. Heck, I can't even say it for myself. The thing is, in letting go I have been able to handle these things much better. The old me couldn't have tucked anything away. The old me would have found a way to work it into the next conversation that he hinted that he loved me. (Yeah, that's real attractive...)

The new me is patient. What will happen will happen. Either way, it won't make or break me.

I am so happy for you that you have a relationship with your mom. I don't talk to family members about my situation. No way.

[tpaschal]

H keeps telling me that I don't really love him, that I just want to hang onto the M because I'm scared of being on my own.

I pulled this out because yesterday, when I was talking to my H about my obsessive need to get every point possible in every class I take (too bad there is no nerd icon like in yahoo...), he stopped me and asked, in all seriousness..."Is this why you are trying so hard to save this marriage? Do you just want to be perfect at everything?" So, my job here is to let go of the idea of perfection and be ok with 'above average.' (I couldn't bring myself to type the word "average.")

I identify with this, maybe too much!

So, your job is to show your H that you are not afraid to be alone. This is NOT going to push him away in the way you think! I know you are thinking what most people here do, "If I act self sufficient he will think that I am fine and move on."

I'm not afraid of that---that me being self-sufficient would push him further away. I guess what I haven't wanted to face is giving up the life I had. The life of being a stay-at-home mom to my kids. It does p*ss me off that my oldest two will have had the benefit of being home with me for a long time, and the little one won't.

If he thinks you are in a marriage just out of neediness, that will send him away lots quicker.

I do know this, but it's awfully hard to watch him fall for a 21 yr. old ho who has "Daddy" issues and sees dollar signs. Why can't he see her neediness, her manipulation? Does he really think that she would have pursued him if he had been the married with 3 kids janitor that changed the office light bulbs? H*ll, no! But a doctor?! Whoo hoo! Suddenly the part about being married with 3 kids didn't seem to matter much, even though she was a supposed good little Christian girl.

THAT's what makes me so angry and hurts so much. I sacrificed for years to help him get to the point he is now, and he tosses me aside for a manipulative child, yet I am the needy one? Sheesh. I know, I know, I KNOW that I have to get past this, and I AM making progress, but it is one of the harder things to get past.

I used to do that "but I WAS happy" thing, too. I was pissed because I was home for my first 2 kids, but then had to work while the 3rd is still at home. But, what choice do I have? I had to do it regardless, so how I chose to handle it was a very important thing. I could have kept saying, "S #3 isn't having the life his brothers did," all the while still having to work, or I could suck it up, go to work, and do everything I could to have time with him in another way. The second way didn't add more guilt to my H, and it didn't push him farther away.

Hmm. I AM guilty of this. But on the other hand, I don't want to make it TOO easy for him to just walk away and wash his hands of us and his responsibility to his kids. Instead of him parroting the same inane comment of "the kids will be just fine," I think it's only fair that he occasionally stop and consider how much their lives are changing. Well, maybe talking about FAIR or NOT FAIR sounds juvenile on my part. But whether he and I ever reconcile or not, he will always be their father, and I don't think it's right that I be left to make all the decisions, to make all of the plans. I know he's not really interested in that right now, and probably doesn't have the emotional maturity to really consider those subjects right now, but does that mean I let him completely weasel out of all thought about it? I waffle on that.

I'm actually trying to treat that part of it as a business deal. Saying to him, "Okay, I will go back to work full time, so what does that mean for the children? That is going to affect them before school, after school, and their extracurricular activities. We need to have a plan." So far, his plan has been to fall back on his parents. My response to that has been (and his parents have backed me up on this), "Your parents are getting too old and their health is getting too precarious for us to be able to count on them as our child care service. What else do you propose?"

Is this wrong? I really don't know.

Look, everyone here can talk about what SOB's their spouses are. The truth of the matter is, it is far more common that WAS's actually really do care about their kids than don't. They may not seem like it, as they left the house. And, maybe they stay away from the kids longer than you think you could. But, they have lots of factors at play, too. And guilt does strange things to a person.

I could have fallen into the victim trap and decided that my H couldn't possibly love his kids if this is what he was doing to them. I didn't. (Ok, maybe there were moments of that, but I snapped out of it quickly.) I did everything I could to keep those relationships going. I didn't punish him by celebrating holidays or birthdays without him (believe me, many people told me to let him feel what it would be like without us). I had him here for EVERYTHING, even if at times it made me really uncomfortable. I am not saying that you are doing any of these things, I am just trying to illustrate that yeah, things can be difficult, but you'll be a lot better off if you just suck it up and keep moving forward.

I'm trying. I really am trying to keep him involved, to invite him to things, to facilitate him keeping up relationships with the kids, but he has the emotional maturity of a guppy. I swear, my hormonal 13 year old daughter who cries at the drop of a hat, or gets hysterical at the least critical comment, has it ALL over him in terms of maturity right now. He often balks at doing things together, and I just calmly say, "Whether you and I are together or not, I will always be their mom and you will always be their dad, so let's find a mature way to handle this and come together for THEIR sakes. Let's make this (whatever activity) all about (child's name). Let's make this a special day for (child.)" Sometimes he responds with a sigh and an agreement, sometimes he gets sarcastic and snarky and does the hurtful disappearing act.

For instance, he asked what our plans were for Christmas. I told him that we were all invited to his parents house for Christmas Eve, just as we had always done, and I knew that the kids and his parents were counting on him to be there. (I knew his mom had already invited him.) I went on to add that the kids were hoping he would be at the house for Christmas morning and that he was, of course, welcome to sleep over in the guest room so that he could be there first thing. His response was nasty sarcasm.

He did end up coming to Christmas Eve at his parent's house, got drunker than a skunk, showed crass, boorish, obnoxious behavior all evening that left his kids bewildered and his mom in tears, then had the gall to have OW come and pick him up because he was too drunk to drive. D13 saw the car, ran down driveway and banged on window screaming, "I hate you, I hope you die!" and when I ran after D13 to drag her back in the house, I did yell at H and OW, "How dare you?" H's response? Left me a lovely text message saying, "What the F*** was that?" Called to speak to the kids for 1 minute each on Christmas day, then did not call, see, or initiate contact with the kids in any way for 3 weeks.

So, sometimes it's awfully hard to believe that he still cares for them. Loves them? Maybe. Cares for them? No. I don't think he's capable of truly caring for anyone right now, not even OW. (Hope I'm not just fooling myself on that one.)

Did you ever let yourself entertain the thought that your NEW happiness might even be your new, IMPROVED happiness????

What if you're great at it? What if you LOVE it???
See, you won't know either way until you try.

And, if you hate it, well, then you will know to keep moving on to something new. This is about you and your happiness.

Sweetie, I need to tell you this...
regardless of your marriage working or not working, some day your kids will be out of the house. You need to have things for YOU and you alone, or you will be running into this same issue then. And God help us, we cannot be on here trying to keep you off of the pool boy because he 'fulfills' you.

LOL! (Is he a really hot pool boy?? Just kidding!)

You've given me a lot of good points to think about. It does seem like my path mirrors yours in many ways. It is good for me to hear that you were in a spot very similar to mine and found a way to make it better and happy and positive for you and your kids. I'm working on it. Practice makes perfect, right?

[CMNM]

I do know this, but it's awfully hard to watch him fall for a 21 yr. old ho who has "Daddy" issues and sees dollar signs. Why can't he see her neediness, her manipulation?

Oh, I would be willing to bet that someday he will. Now, if he admits it or not, that's another thing.
By the way, where the hell are her parents in this??? Wait, let me guess- not in the picture? Is this where the daddy issue is coming from? Nevermind...don't answer that. This thread is about us fabulous chicks, and we won't waste our time wondering, K?

I don't want to make it TOO easy for him to just walk away and wash his hands of us and his responsibility to his kids.

The way I look at it is this: If he is going to walk away from his responsibility, he will regardless of what you are doing or not doing. The best thing that will happen is that you will actually facilitate time for him and the kids. And, isn't that what is best for the kids in the long run? Meredith can vouch for me here, I had the hardest time with my H coming and going as he pleased. I wanted to put a stop to his Monday night TV night with my son. Why? Because it wasn't fair that I had to bend over backwards and accomodate him! But, I talked to my son about it. He said, "mom, I really like to have that night with dad, in my own house." So, I made it happen. Hell, I even made snacks for them to enjoy. And, I learned to look at in terms not of making it easier for my H, but instead of making my son happy.

I know he's not really interested in that right now, and probably doesn't have the emotional maturity to really consider those subjects right now, but does that mean I let him completely weasel out of all thought about it?

What good will come of demands at this point? You cannot turn him into something he is not. What you can do is control YOU and YOUR relationship with your children. By doing so, you are modeling the proper behavior. That is about all you can do at this point.

My response to that has been (and his parents have backed me up on this), "Your parents are getting too old and their health is getting too precarious for us to be able to count on them as our child care service. What else do you propose?"

Is this wrong? I really don't know.

It is never wrong to ask for input. Just do it in a nice way. And be prepared for a non answer or one that will piss you off!

Your Christmas story was painful to read. I am so sorry you had to go through that. Wow. He is a real mess.

LOL! Is he a really hot pool boy??

Of course he is! Only the best for us!!!

[Meredith]

Yes! I'll marry you next Thursday at 2:00pm, is that okay? But, Friday I have to be back at work.

Although I seem to remember reading somewhere that two addicts (even recovered) don't do well in relationships. So maybe we'd be doomed to failure as reformed crazymakers...

Oh what the hell, what's life without a little risk, right?

[Meredith]

I too have been stuck in the rut of "I was so happy..." well that was then and this is now and I tell you what the NOW of living back then is not such a happy place.

Crazy, isn't it!?!? I do that too, looking back I really wonder what in the world I was holding onto so tightly!!

Sad is okay. Grieving is good, and a necessary part of the process. As you say, it's another layer of the onion. Do we throw these layers into the trash, or are we making some french onion soup, or what?

Fight those thoughts, replace them with positive ones, keep on keeping on You're really doing great, Cagz.

To help tpaschal and to also give yourself a little challenge, what would you do if your H behaved absolutely heinously to D11 with similar behavior to tpsachal's husband at the Christmas celebration.

[Meredith]

First, a real quick answer to Cagz, then I'll get on with the tpaschal.

NOPE, you are not a bad girl for thinking of him dying!!! That is my public service announcement of the day.

In fact, maybe that is a good idea for tpascal. Since it might be a tad much to picture your husband, um, deceased... let's picture him gone instead. He's on a deserted island in the middle of nowhere. Crap. Now what?

Well, now you have to go back to work since deserted islands don't pay well. There isn't any cell phone reception there either so you can't even call to tell him what a total piece of you-know-what he is for eating coconuts all day long while you work your fingers to the bone to put broccoli on the table. He blew up his ship (intentionally) so he's not going to be able to get back to the mainland anytime soon.

Basically, he's eating coconuts under palm trees and you need to process your anger AND get on with getting on. Since we don't know if he'll build another ship or not, we can't count on him but we can hope if we want to. So, all of our stock is in you, baby.

Childcare - what are the choices? YOUR choices, who cares what that coconut-eater wants, he's busy eating coconuts! We'll send a messenger bird out there with the new plan, just to keep him informed, but since he's not going to be an active part of the solution he really doesn't need to be an active part in the decision either.

Obviously this isn't the cure all since he will be an influence in his children's lives and you can't REALLY kick him to an island. But it might help to visualize solutions better...

Back to CMNM on this...

[tpaschal]

In fact, maybe that is a good idea for tpascal. Since it might be a tad much to picture your husband, um, deceased... let's picture him gone instead. He's on a deserted island in the middle of nowhere. Crap. Now what?

Well, now you have to go back to work since deserted islands don't pay well. There isn't any cell phone reception there either so you can't even call to tell him what a total piece of you-know-what he is for eating coconuts all day long while you work your fingers to the bone to put broccoli on the table. He blew up his ship (intentionally) so he's not going to be able to get back to the mainland anytime soon.

LOL! Actually, thinking of him dying doesn't make me as sad as thinking of him continuing on this path for the rest of his life.

I've often thought it would have been easier on all of us if he had died in a car accident back in Dec. 06, instead of us having to watch him change into this totally alien person. It would have been horrible, and we would have grieved terribly, but we would have had the comfort of remembering him as the wonderful husband, father, doctor, and son that he was. Now? Now we've got the grief without the comfort. Now we've got the pain of fresh wounds on a regular basis.

It's hard to explain it to S9 and D5, but I've actually used a similar analogy on D13. She has needed help with Algebra this year, but H is rarely available, and when he has been he gets easily frustrated with her and ends up yelling and she ends up crying. But D13 did not want to consider other options---taking up Grandfather's offer of help instead of calling Daddy, hiring an outside tutor---because she had never had to before. I finally said, "What if asking Daddy for help wasn't an option? What would you do if the Army desperately needed more doctors, and your Dad was drafted and sent to Iraq for the next two years? Then you would HAVE to consider one of these other options, right? Well, then, that's what we have to imagine. When it comes to Algebra, Daddy is in Iraq."

She gets it. She doesn't like it, but she gets it.

I guess I'm on the right track, just need to apply it to me and not just to the kids, hmmm?

Basically, he's eating coconuts under palm trees and you need to process your anger AND get on with getting on. Since we don't know if he'll build another ship or not, we can't count on him but we can hope if we want to. So, all of our stock is in you, baby.

Childcare - what are the choices? YOUR choices, who cares what that coconut-eater wants, he's busy eating coconuts! We'll send a messenger bird out there with the new plan, just to keep him informed, but since he's not going to be an active part of the solution he really doesn't need to be an active part in the decision either.

Obviously this isn't the cure all since he will be an influence in his children's lives and you can't REALLY kick him to an island. But it might help to visualize solutions better...

Back to CMNM on this...

This does help---thanks.

In some ways, I think it would be easier if he WAS stuck far away on that island or in Iraq or whatever. I think I can make my major decisions that way---when and where to go back to work, when and where to move, what to do about after school care, etc., and it will be much easier for me.

But I do struggle with how to handle my part in his interactions with the kids. CMNM mentioned earlier about facilitating her H's relationship with their kids---where she allowed H to come ove for TV night with S. I'm trying to do the same thing. H picks up our 2 younger kids from school one day a week and brings them to the house. And sometimes when it's supposed to be his weekend but he refuses to take them for whatever reason he'll do the same thing---just come over here to see them. Sometimes he'll take them to the park, but usually he just hangs out with them here for an hour or two. I try to stay out of the way unless I'm asked by H or the kids to join in or contribute. Is that good for DB'ing? I think so, but don't really know. I want him to feel comfortable and welcome here (though I can tell by how he sometimes paces through the house that he is nervous and uncomfortable.)

But what about when it comes to some of the other stuff of daily life? I really struggle with this stuff. My lawyer says I need to show good will by keeping him informed, so...how far do I go?

For instance---S9 just started playing soccer. Do I send him the website and let him get the game and practice schedules himself, because, after all, he is a big boy and if he wants to find out what his kids are doing he's got the tools to do it. OR, do I go a step further and send him a copy of the game and practice schedules and leave it at that? OR, should I say, "Hey, I need help getting S9 to soccer practice this week because it conflicts with D13's activities. Please let me know when you can help." OR, should I be more assertive and say, "S9 has soccer tonight, I'm supposed to run D13's carpool which conflicts, please pick up S9 at 6pm for soccer."

Actually, I've used each one of these over the past year. Still not sure which approach is the right one. Sometimes he'll react positively to one approach, then the next time be a big jerk about it.

I usually do tend toward the more assertive approach, I guess because my thought has been that if we were still happily married and he was living at home, we would share responsibility for the kids as we always did. So what if he's made the choice to leave the marriage? Why should that affect the kids anymore that it already has? He's still their father, and needs to share responsibility just like we always did.

Is that completely wrong? I just don't know anything for sure anymore.

I really do appreciate you guys and your advice. I hope I'm not being too draining!!


On a positive note about things I'm doing for me---I started the Financial Peace University class at my church, I've started walking in the mornings, and my friend and I just decided to do a booth in our community wide garage sale this spring. It's a great incentive to clean out the closets and weed through all the kids old toys and clothes!

[cagzmom]

First and foremost if you are doing anything to get a reaction then DONT do it! PERIOD. I have learned that the very hard way. Even right now I am struggling with the what to do or not do.

Because I am doing this for ME (remember that was what I liked about this thread it was nothing about THEM and all about us!) Ok back to topic..because it is about ME I have to do what works for ME.

This is NEW to me. VERY new. In the early stages H used to do the same..come over (not often) and hang...This spring/summer he did for awhile until he really started going over the edge. IT WAS VERY HARD ON ME. I do NOT regret it as it helped I think with the transition...but I can't do it - let me rephrase I WONT do it right now.

Even with the holidays this past year - YES I WANTED him to come over for awhile and be "family" but we are a NEW family and it wouldn't have been good for any of us (FOR HIM sure us no.) MY C even said it was too soon. My heart is too raw. AND about a month ago I did have him come in and "talk/hang" for a little bit while d11 got ready to leave...IT WAS TOOOOOOOOO NORMAL. We laughed, teased WE WERE TOO COMFORTABLE. I told my C and he said that I hadn't set enough PERSONAL BOUNDARIES for it. It was NOT a bad thing just a LEARNING thing.

Which brings us to another post............