Angel, you said that when you push H for a date about coming home he stalls and starts MLC talk. I feel like my H is stalling for time, but his MLC talk is very discouraging. How do you not get discouraged at your H's MLC talk? Your input is appreciated.
Hi Everyone! Michele, thank you so much for the pat on the back--it felt great!
CC, you're going to get differing views on the dating question depending upon who you ask. I once read somewhere a while back (when all of this started and my relationship book collection began to expand) that many or most of us when we date are thinking about the possibilities of the dates turning into romance and the romance turning into marriage. It followed with the question of how we can really think in a healthy way of marrying someone when we're still at least emotionally attached to a spouse. We're all capable of blocking things out and finding routes to ease our pain, but the key is probably whether certain routes are healthy for us. In this, I don't think there is a real moral judgment expressed, but rather a simple question of what is best for each of us. For me, I've known that I could not get involved with someone else and honestly answer the question "what would you do if your H expressed serious regret and/or wanted to work on the marriage?" and have any reasonable or wise man want to be a romantic interest in my life.
Now, that is not to say that I do not miss the companionship and romance of a healthy relationship, but the lack of those things just doesn't spark the despair in me that I would have once imagined. My life is pretty full right now with expanding some new interests I've found and keeping up with my two loving preschoolers. To steal from a book I recently read ("A Year By The Sea") and have discussed with a very close friend, I'm pretty much an "unfinished woman." I love that reference because it doesn't necessarily include confusion, resentment, or anger--there's just more to uncover and develop.
So, CC my suggestion is not to date if it's because you're fearful of things not working out with H or because he is dating. Don't try to cover all bases and feel like you need someone in the wings should things further deteriorate. You'll want to be ready and whole should the time come to start with someone new. Ask yourself the questions that you would ask a married, but separated man if he wanted to date you. Think about your true answers and whether it is time for you to be with someone else now. Only you know what is best for you, but it seems unlikely that the quick fixes will bring the happiness that you want.
On your other questions, if you can, try to stop spending energy on figuring out H's conflicting signals and motives. Give him space, stop initiating the OR talks, and do things for you now. He knows you want to work on the marriage and that you love him. He has to work things out for himself and probably wants to know that you respect his need for space. When you take your focus off of him and put it back on you, you will be able to more easily give him his requested space. Hang in there CC.
Angel, it was so wonderful to hear from you! I've thought of you and hoped that you and H were doing well.
On the anniversary issue, I'd honestly let it go. I know how hard that is and know you want him to do some planning for the two of you, but here's what I concluded in my situation: if I come up with a gameplan for doing something in celebration and he responds favorably, I'll likely wonder whether he would have thought of anything himself. It's kind of one of those no-win situations, unless, of course, he always made the plans before and making the suggestion would be a real change for you. In my situation, I was always the planner and organizer.
At this stage, I'd give him a chance to come through before mentioning anything re. your wishes. If he doesn't mention doing anything how about leaving the kids with him and treating yourself to a fun night out? I've gotten real good at enjoying spontaneous solo movie visits, finding new restaurants on my own, relaxing evenings at Barnes & Noble...
I hope you have a great day tomorrow and that H pulls through for you. Have a nice 16th anniversary--Jamie
[This message has been edited by jamie (edited 05-25-2000).]
Thanks for asking about my job search. I am in a bit of a funk today. Logically, I know that I'm focusing on the negatives rather than the positives but my perfectionist side comes shining through. I have had a wonderful response to the jobs w/ the recruiter and I've gone to some excellent companies. One of the companies isn't going to work out and I'm so disappointed. And the reality that the best company is extremely interested hasn't cheered me up. It is a good lesson for me because I still deal horribly w/ disappointment, at least initially. I'm a firm believer in the right thing happening at the right time but when you are stuck in the middle of it you've got to keep reminding yourself.
Thanks for asking about Andy. I tried a new groomer yesterday and my puppy looks like he got caught in a fan. So he won't be going back there any time soon. Otherwise, he is a healthy puppy w/ a giant bark for a small dog. This weekend he'll be having a ton of fun playing w/ my mom's puppies while we housesit. And I'm looking into those doggie daycare sites because accepting a new job will probably mean additional hours for me and more time alone for him.
On the Peacock front, he gave me a call last night at 10:30pm to chat but I was sound asleep. We still have our car insurance together and he hasn't closed out the checking account even though we are divorced. His behavior is puzzling at times, most of my friends & family are stunned by his contact w/ me. He checks in w/ me every couple of weeks and calls if he has any big news. Our friendship is nice but I do wonder if he regrets some of his actions last year. But now I am DB proficient and never ask about his feelings or regrets.
On the personal front, my friend recommended this fitness program called "Body for Life." They have a 12 week challenge so I am going for it. She has really changed her shape w/ the exercise techniques and we have a similar shape. So far, so good.
I'm excited to read about all of the progress that you have been w/ your H. I know what you mean when you say the comment about "drive safely." At some point, every move you make becomes reason for a fight. I can't second guess myself because I had to make my choices at time when everything was happening but I think you are fortunate that money hasn't become an issue for you, it allows you some additional time. The other day I had an event at Dave & Busters and I was so happy that it wasn't open last year because Peacock would have ensured that we funded another restaurent expansion on our AXEX card.
Thanks for asking about my world and please continue w/ the updates about your success!!!
Jamie, Thank you for the advice you last posted to me, believe me, I think a lot about what you tell me. Since my H is also very control sensitive and won't do anything unless it's at his own pace (and by his own will, not because you ask him to), I'm very interested in how you handled your situation because your H has these same traits. My H has implied in the past that he needs to "feel" differently about everything in order for anything to change. This has frustrated me a great deal because Michelle's advice is to act as if and the feelings will follow. Well my H doesn't believe in therapy or anything like that, so somehow things just have to change magically. My concern is though, that after a long time (11 mo. now of physical separation and minimum contact), won't his feelings be "used" to his current lifestyle without us? I don't see him being motivated to change because he seems to have adapted to his single lifestyle. For me, time does tend to break down the connection. Do you think it's different for men in that regard? How much contact did your H maintain as far as coming to his home, doing things around the house etc. and what attitude did you have toward him regarding phone calls, showing a personal interest in his life etc? My H and I don't communicate hardly at all right now. I don't show interest in his life because I'm distancing and it seemed that he didn't like it when I did because he perceived that as still being interested in him. It's tricky when you talk about detaching but still being friendly. I don't feel very friendly anyway because to me, he deserted me and our children and fell down on his comitments. What advice do you have about the amount of contact/interest a spouse should exhibit when trying to detach? Also, do you think there was OW in the picture with your H? This has become a distinct possibility with my H that could be complicating the outcome. I'm still having a hard time not obsessing about his agenda, maybe because I want to be prepared for the worst. I do think about my life now in terms of not being with my H anymore. Unfortunately this is also causing me anger and resentment at what I consider to be many years invested down the drain and all the hassle of starting over. I know I need to adopt a better attitude, but how did you get over the anger and resentment hurdle? I appreciate any help you can give me on all this, it's a struggle getting through this, but I know I will eventually.
Hi CC- The questions you've raised are all ones that I've personally had during the past year or so in my separation. My H too had said that his feelings just needed to change--he wasn't sure how they needed to change or what magic it would take to transform them, but he knew they needed to change. I remember one particular conversation many months ago when I suppose I essentially lectured him on the reality that you have to decide to work on something before the feelings would change. I added in a blind non-DB fashion at the time that I thought he felt that lightening might strike someday and potentially he would fall back in love with me. I got one of those "deer in the headlights" looks that I'll always remember and zero feedback. In reflecting on those moments, I think what has happened is that he needed to have enough time pass to see that our interaction would be improved substantially for an extended period of time.
Although I clearly surmised differently at the time, I now believe that H never truly had a master plan for where things were going. I used to spend many hours speculating re. all of the deceit and planning that H likely had underway. However, I now feel pretty certain that many of our walkaways think only for the moment until they're comfort level with us changes significantly. The wait and see approach is extremely difficult when you've been left, but it is clear that many hours can ultimately be wasted in trying to figure out what they are doing, planning, or thinking. The fact is that there are many things that we simply can't be sure of and that is, in and of itself, something painful to adjust to when you've felt so certain and confident about so many things in the relationship in the past.
By doing more and more for you CC, you will move closer to detaching and letting go of H. You will still wonder about him, but it will honestly be a calmer feeling that seldom gets really stirred up.
I honestly don't know whether my H has had an OW at any point during our separation. I chose not to investigate and determine the issue some time ago. I can't explain how I was able to not pursue certain signs that there might have been an OW. This is especially strange for me I guess because I had and continue to have many resources available to me to find out one way or another very quickly. I just let it go though.
I'm going to open a new thread later to ask for some advice and feedback re. some recent developments in my situation over the weekend. I suppose there are always new challenges and questions! Jamie
[This message has been edited by jamie (edited 05-30-2000).]
Jamie, I know you have a new thread, but I don't want to bug you with my questions there. Your H has the same attitude my H has about his feeling needing to change etc, all that passive aggressive stuff...did your H seem to cycle on and off with distancing and being out of touch or was he consistently in touch with you? I'm not making any moves toward my H at all, have backed off 100%, but he is still distant and isn't making any moves either. I feel very tempted at this point (1yr.separation) to file for D. I don't see any progress whatsoever.
Hi CC- There were definitely cycles in the contact with my H. There were periods during which he'd call every day and then we'd go days without any contact. I realized that I couldn't really pinpoint a pattern to it all, in that I stayed relatively consistent, except for what I'd call a few "hicups" or DB backslides here and there. I'm now pretty confident that his lack of contact on occassion really wasn't part of a grand scheme. I did have my moments when I was convinced he was testing me to see how I'd react. I'd feel myself getting sad about what felt like a new level of neglect at the time and put more energy into keeping busy and having fun. I had to change the tape in my head or I would have gone nuts. Focussing on the negative for long seemed to just bring more of it about. CC, let me give this some more thought to see if I can come up with some other ideas--I've got to run for now--Jamie
I have a passive-aggressive husband too (been separated 6 months, married 19 1/2 yrs). I got the Scott Wexler book early on, and was very DISCOURAGED by it. I did have email from one of the ladies who reviewed it on amazon.com and she had positive feedback on her situation. But after reading the book I just felt there was no hope as my H was probably not capable of emotional intimacy, etc. And was I putting all this effort into something that just couldn't be anyway.
Thankfully I was able to have a consult with Michele, and she said she does not like to label people. We got to talking about my H and how we have had some long OR talks (the last one was 6 hrs at HIS initiation)....at which time he really opened up to me and shared deep things....which he has been doing pretty much all along in our separation (we have a REALLY strange separation--he has been coming over twice a week and having nice talks, etc. with me and we have become friends again). Anyway, Michele said, "see there, you cannot really label him p-a when he opens up like that...it is not good to put a label on people." This really encouraged me and gave me hope.
She said my situation IS very hopeful and has been giving me wonderful advice which is working! I just have to continue to have patience. But let me say, he came over Sat. and worked in the yard for 5 hrs!! (without me asking). You all will know what a breakthru THAT is!
Hi Jamie, I wanted to reply to the post you so kindly sent me a few days ago, but I can't remember on what thread it was, even though I was looking pretty diligently. You're right about my looking for signs of anything. I have been measuring and reading our relationship very carefully for the past two years. I didn't so much before then, and perhaps I should have been but hindsight as they say is 20/20. I am really trying to detach from this whole saga, and I was doing okay the last time we went down into this hole. It's just that I'm running out of steam big time. (Incidentally, I do work, and right now it's more than fuill-time and the baby is still up a couple of times a night -- three times last night -- so I know fatigue has something to do with my moods.) Problem is six or eight weeks ago, my h came out of the fog, said he had caused enough problems for everyone, humongous amount of pain for me, and wanted his life to go back to normal. He said he loved me, that I shown a great deal of patience and wisdom, etcetc. And then went away on his trip with OW for three weeks, always writing me, and trying to assure me nothing was happening. According to him, and I think I believe him, it was never a PA, but the point is he's been in and out oflove with her (by his own admission) for the past 2.5 years and he is and never has made any attempt to break the relationship, despite what any counsellors have told him he must do. There have also been other women he has pursued, and to what extent I don't know. This all mixed with the other stuff we've all heard, I don't love you etcetc. While he was away I was very upset about his being there with her, and let him know it. When he came back we talked a bit, and it was probably more of th same on my part, ie the pushing and not being happy about it. But frankly, it was also more of the same on his part -- refusing to budge, refusing to give me any signs of commitment or remorse or regret or of even trying to win me back in any way. I aske dhim to come to NYC with me for a few days, at the tail end of my business, and he reluctantly agreed, then made the whole trip miserable. I could tell he was growing more distant, and I did the wrong thing had a long talk and cryfest. Then when we returned I tried to do the detaching and keeping it light and so on. We were getting along much better, but he's still resisting on the ILU and there's no sign of his being open to counselling or anything. I have tried to back off, and leave things alone, but I guess the first email from him overseas with the love dropped off (he's a very deliberate man with his words) spoke such volumes to me. I can't go down that road again. The pain is unbearable, especially being pulled up and then thrown down again. This is the fourth time in less than two years and every time he goes through this cycle it lasts longer than the previous time. I have been reviewing our marriage over the years and it doesn't hold up in such a good light as when I reviewed it last December after going through DBing again. I really do think I'm ready to throw in the towel, and even though I see him making the effort to do the right thing I know what's behind it. Last fall, when he wouldn't leave but wanted to do the right thing, he was also on chat lines, one time was heaidng downtown after drinking excessively, with the escort ads tucked under his arm (until I told him if that's what he was up to then to get out of the marriage and the house right then and there). I know the type of woman he's attracted to, and one of the mothers at my baby's daycare is just that type (and happily married). He was asking me about her one day, in a very casual sort of way. I know you're thinking that I'm being paranoid, but it's not. I know the signs, I know he's looking, and I believe he will never leave until he has found someone to jump ship with. He keeps up the facade with me for the kids, and it's absolutely killing me. He was asking various people last year what they thought might be an alternative to the conventional marriage (interestingly, he never asked me what my opinion was on that, odd considering I would be the one who was going to have to live with it), but he wouldn't ask his conventional friends because they would have an answer he wasn't seeking. He admitted he has had EAs with students for many years (he taught for about three or four years after our son was born seven years ago), so this is not just a mlc condition, though mlc certainly has a lot to do with it. When he first told me that he didn't love me and was never committed to me, I didn't believe him, but over the past two years I have come to believe him very much. That's why I watch these signs, and know the signs that I'm seeing repeated from the last three times. Mother's Day he didn't even wish me greetings, and when we celebrated it the following weekend he got a card from the kids and two packs of seeds (in place of a bouquet he said). Whenever he feels he doesn't love me, I can tell by the kinds of gifts he gives, whether there's any thought to them or not. Last year after the first crisis, we were "in love" again for a few months. I asked no questions, except to say I would rather he not see the woman who he had written those letters to (I didn't know who it was at the time), and then when I found out he was sneaking around behind my back to have lunch and dinner with her (lying about who he was with) I hit the roof and I don't feel that it was unjustified or an unreasonable request. He is one who cannot be pushed in any way shape or form and I really feel that this is a pattern that we are caught up in that will never change, unless I completely make a jellyfish of myself and absorb all his emotional blows. In so doing, though, I am going to become so hardened, and the grief and pain will become so buried that it cannot be healthy. He cannot take any conversation about my hurt or anger, and he will not brook any argument about OW. He clams up and starts to blame our rotten marriage. He is still protecting her, and after two years of taking this abuse, because that is what this is, I have had enough. I know the signs, and perhaps I am being a bit of ahawk on them, but I just cannot go there again. Thanks for letting me ramble.
Hi Carol and Alex, I've been off the board for a couple of days, due to recent unfortunate events with my H, and just read your posts. I'm trying to regroup now and figure out my next move, which may be to do absolutely nothing. But, I did want to say that I'm happy that things are looking brighter for you Carol and that I'm glad that the consult with Michele really helped. I've had one with one of her associates quite some time ago and am considering trying to arrange another. Hang in there and be strong.
Alex, I can relate to so much of what you've said. Just when I think I'm past H being able to throw a zinger that will hurt me he proves me wrong. I'll write more soon and likely open a new thread once my head is secured back on my shoulders a little better. I hope you're feeling better and that your H's fog lifts for you and your family. Again, and as always, hoping you stay strong and take care of yourself--Jamie
