I have not - at least intentionally - put my H last
again...rephrased: "I have put my h last".
not intentionally, of course. so, that means you're not a bad person. but he ~feels~ last. and that feels extremely painful.
Seems like you're looking at this whole thing as some sort of negotiation. At the end of any successful negotiation, both parties come away from the table feeling like they've been slighted. Thats not going to work w/ a relationship. This "tit for tat" stuff...(I guess you said thats mostly him)...it won't work. I don't think "meeting half-way" will, either. you both have to meet ALL your partner's needs. He claims a good sex life will solve all of his negative behaviors. I disagree how do you know? have you tried it? I'll tell you what: I'm much nicer to be around when I've been boinked. There, I said it. and being "nicer" makes me much more attractive, which makes w want to boink me again, and so on...and so on... Now, I'm not saying that its as easy as all that...just boink him, and all your problems will be solved. no no. But there is some truth to what he says. Doctors haven't fixed me. Meds haven't fixed me perhaps because there isn't anything "wrong" with you. I have this sense that HDM - and this is a generalization - do not have the patience. hmmm....just keep reading. Many of the HDs here (m's and W's) have been dealing with this for long, long time, and have gone **years** without any sex at all. years!! We've never been that bad...but we've been together for over 20 years, and only in the last couple of them have things really improved. Is that too impatient? maybe its not "patience", at all...just really really low self-esteem.
It IS important! I do want to hear other's viewpoints, which is why I'm hear. This topic is just so sensitive for me. As far as stressors, I do have more than the average gal. Sadly, two of the big ones will probably be gone in the not too distant future.
My H does have low self esteem. I'm sure he feels last.
cac, you said (sorry I don't know how to quote) "Seems like you're looking at this whole thing as some sort of negotiation. At the end of any successful negotiation, both parties come away from the table feeling like they've been slighted. Thats not going to work w/ a relationship. This "tit for tat" stuff...(I guess you said thats mostly him)...it won't work. I don't think "meeting half-way" will, either. you both have to meet ALL your partner's needs. "
Can you tell me more? How do you do that? And yes, I've tried giving him what he wants, but I always feel like it's never enough or it's not right. I think he now knows he shouldn't be critical - that it backfires on him. Our sex life is in a bad, bad place. That's why I was looking for ways to rebuild passion for myself. I think he is gunshy and lost. He's not much of a leader, yet this is one area I don't particularly feel comfortable leading.
LS, you probably don't have time to read, do you? Books I'd suggest are Five Love Languages (Chapman) and Michele's A Woman's Guide to Changing her Man: without his even knowing it. Maybe you could keep a book with you so that whenever you have a few minutes, you could read a bit.
One message from the books is to figure out what your partner needs (this will not necessarily be the same thing you need in any area) and give it to him. Yes, you'll be doing all the work, putting out all the effort, etc. - sometimes that's just the way it is, and if your goal is to repair your M, you can't insist that everything has to be 'fair' right now.
Okay, LightSeeker, I’m taking a whole new tack here.
Pondering your repetitive negative comments, a light bulb (or “laht bub” as we say in the South) came on over my head.
Your H threatened to bail during your engagement? He called up old girlfriends during your pregnancy? He is verbally abusive to you? He acts like there’s something wrong with you?
Honey, living in this negative atmosphere, how COULD you feel good about yourself? What does your H say to you or about you that is positive? Does he compliment your appearance, your cooking, your mothering skills, your opinions… in short, what does he seem to like about you? Anything?
Let me use myself as an example: I have been in a very rocky relationship with a recovering alcoholic for the past 5.5 years. He was the partner who was not interested in sex, for a variety of reasons. Anyway, he could be very abrasive and even mean sometimes, distant, punitive, short on cuddles and comfort. I read in the “Book of Jewish Values” that the most important quality to look for in a spouse is kindness. I would not call this man kind. He’s not malicious, but is not one of the warm people.
So. I’m currently taking this computer illustration class at the local community college. (I’ve written some about it in my thread that’s now locked.) The teacher of this class is KIND. Through and through. I listen to him critique students’ work, and he so is positive. It absolutely blows my mind. It’s been so long since I’ve been around someone who is just plain kind and considerate. This morning he critiqued my work and he was so positive, I just didn’t know how to take it. He was even taken aback by my lack of responsiveness to his compliments. (He is also critical of the stuff that’s less than good—he’s not just a flatterer.) After the class, when I was driving away, I realized that I didn’t know how to react when someone was just NICE to me. Someone who looked at my (in this case) homework and JUST PLAIN LIKED IT. I’ve been living in such a negative atmosphere for so long, where I’ve had to argue, defend myself, explain myself, hide my hurt feelings—and yet not lash back or that would just start a nuclear war. Being around a normal, nice, kind, courteous, considerate person who is not out to hurt me—very unfamiliar.
LightSeeker, is it possible that the way you are feeling is a perfectly healthy, normal response to years of abuse? Instead of assuming that you’re “broken,” what if you make the assumption that you’re totally sane, healthy, mentally and emotionally competent, and that you’re just reaching the end of your rope after being criticized, verbally abused, and made to feel damaged? Do you have many contacts outside your home—work, friends, family, church, exercise group, garden club, book club? Is there anyone in your life to tell you that you’re good at things, you know stuff, you’re smart, and you’re valuable? Is the majority of feedback that you get from your H who is verbally abusive (if it’s more than .001% of the time, it’s too much!) and dissatisfied with your sexual “performance”? I maintain that you’re far from broken, you’re trying to save yourself!
Indeed, LS, I think you should think seriously about what Lil said.
Cac, I hear ya, but I belive one of her earlier posts disclosed that her husband is working massive hours and off doing his own fun stuff a lot on the weekends. Not a problem in itself, of course. But if he's not lovin' the amount of sex he's getting ... and given that they are both actively trying improve things ... it might be smart (let alone loving) to, you know, BE AROUND when she might be less tired and more up for it?
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
[/i]But I'm discouraged because I have this sense that HDM - and this is a generalization - do not have the patience.
Judging from the many, many HD's on this board with start dates prior to 2006, I would suggest that your generalization is way off the mark. Normally I struggle with patience. I filled up my salt water aquarium much quicker that suggested, etc. Do I want change NOW? Of course, but I am here year in and year out because I want my marriage to get better. In some ways most of us here have too much patience, which allows our spouses to back-slide or make the occasional cosmetic change to the R that doesn't last because they know that we will keep on trying anyway.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
Okay - I appreciate all of these comments. Still looking for ways to increase the passion. What do you do? massage? dance? etc? Ingrid said they sleep nude. I'm not sure how that works with kids.
lil - sometimes I definitely get caught up in the crazymaking. How can a person not??! My H has made some strides forward. He now at least understands these behaviors are unhealthy. He's going to anger management.
As you said, I need to focus on the positive. Here are the positive's about my H:
He is a wonderful, fun dad. He encourages me to get out of the house more. He is willing to share chores - groceries, laundry, dishes,etc. He handles all insurance and finances. He occasionally tells me I look nice. (this is not something that comes naturally to him that I've asked him to work on) He helps out with my ill relations.
So, you see he isn't all bad. I've told him it would be easier if he were worse or if he would hit me! Because then I would end the M. No question.
You are right about classes too. I too an online class and loved the positive feedback. I was craving it.
We have agreed that we absolutely need to work on communication. I've told him I need to hear compliments and receive words and deeds of affection (not sex). I've told him I understand he needs sex. I wish I needed it too, but right now it is sooooo much effort for me to enjoy any of it that it is really all about him.
I'm not always good at telling him how I feel - partly because I think it will always turn into a sex talk and about what he's missing.
I guess it is time for us to make it or break it.
Okay, I must run. I'm going to go back and read through all of these posts tomorrow. Some really good stuff here. Thanks everyone.
I wouldn't expect any radical change. While it is possible that you will both have a revolutionary breakthrough, it seems like the success stories on this board take a little while and you are going to have to stick with it for a while.
I think in my case, if my wife suddenly did a 180 and starting not only not rejecting me, but started initiating, I would be suspicious (smiling, but suspicious) that there was another motive and it wasn't going to last. I think it would take a while before the years of resentment were truly wiped clean.
PF
Me; 42, W; 43 M; 16 yrs S12, D9
3/13 - "I want to move to XYZ City (four hours away) and it might be without you, not sure" 5/13 - "Not sure I meant that"
PF - there is resentment on both sides in these situations, and I agree with you that it is hard to let it go. My H did take his turn to initiate last night. It was not the best experience I've ever had but not the worst either. I start feeling the resentment and anxiety moreso afterwards (which may explain the long lag between ML), but this time I started thinking about his good points and my DD. It helps me.
The taking turns thing may be a good trick for us. We are both competitive spirits and their is now the feeling of...oh don't let it go longer than the other did. I don't know...we'll see.
I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a rant on my H. I know he's not perfect...neither am I. He does have a lot of good qualities and it's easy to lose them admidst the struggles and stresses of our daily life.
I'd really love to know how others build passion - block aversions - whatever. I want to be able to enjoy LM as much as possible for me at this point in time. I've read everything - honestly. I like the High Conflict Relationship book as it has exercises to help bring a couple closer. We are trying - both of us. I hope it lasts. I'm sure there will be setbacks, but at least we keep trying.
but he ~feels~ last. and that feels extremely painful. 
and being "nicer" makes me much more attractive, which makes w want to boink me again, and so on...and so on...