LD + HD; Does It Ever Really Work?

[MichiganMan]

New here, though I've lurked for months, perusing many worthwhile threads in the archives. And I've enjoyed them; it's been great to see affirmation that so many others have been down this difficult road and kindly shared their experiences and wisdom.

Me 50, wife 49, married 10 yrs, no kids with each other, 2nd time around for both, both attractive/fit w/no chronic health issues, thank God. SL ended shortly after the honeymoon(well, not quite ended, but ML got down to 2-4 uninspired times per year, and receiving charity sex ain't my bag; I believe she's truly somewhere between LD and ND;). Read SSM 4-5 years ago, lovingly discussed and gave book to wife, she essentially blew it off. Long story short, things really came to a head back in September, and, after a series of poignant discussions (she finally read the book along with a couple others I recommended), now we're separated.

Wife is a kind, honest and beautiful woman. Close friends I've recently shared this with are flabbergasted("you seemed like such a perfect couple etc."). As many of you have observed, true intimacy tends to die when you've got a HD/LD imbalance going on in a relationship, and the latent hurt/anger has sometimes bubbled out of HD me in the form of chilly remarks which really don't help things. Wife is convinced that I have problem with over-obsessiveness with sex, and points out that people just naturally have less sex as they age. She truly cannot believe that two people who really love each other could ever really split up simply because of such a trivial thing as a large imbalance in their level of sexual desire.

When she finally realized how serious the situation was, she rather reluctantly offered to have sex as often as I'd like, if that's what it takes, though she made it somewhat clear she would not be enjoying it. She dug her heels in on my suggestions that we consider a sex therapist, adamantly insisting that is out of the question.

In reflecting on so many of the old threads I've read (and sometimes their aftermath), it seems that it's rare that a couple of truly mismatched sexual desire can ever reach a state where folks can live happy and fulfilling lives; folks that are truly LD (I'm talking LD right down to their bones, not temporarily so) just seem to see relationship issues through different lenses than their HD partners. I understand when children are involved, that things are certainly different, and it may well be worth it to do your darndest to work together and reach a tolerable state of affairs to keep things together; but, in the end, or especially if there are no children in the picture - can we, using the SSM or some other approach, ever reach a state with each other that is relatively free of sex-starved suffering and angst?

Or are we just delaying the inevitable?
Thanks for listening.

[chocolateeyes]

God, am I the wrong one to ask today . . .

[sat567]

can we, using the SSM or some other approach, ever reach a state with each other that is relatively free of sex-starved suffering and angst?

Absolutely! Here are your choices (note: these are MY own, patented, approaches, and in no way connected with the SSM approach) (Oh, and I was just kidding about the patent....):

Choice 1: Destruction of your genitalia by mechanical, biological, chemical, or other traumatic method, rendering even the thought of sex a living nightmare of horrific pain, leaving you writhing in agony and deaf from your own screams. (Note: to reduce the chance of any resentment, such destruction should be in no way connected to any action by your loved one, e.g. by her hand, or by her verbal guidance to an accomplice, etc.)

Choice 2: Brain transplant (in wife).
Choice 3: Chemical enhancement of wife's libido. Unfortunately this only works when the loved one has no libido, generally, as opposed to most cases, when the actuality of the matter is much more painful (although not as painful as Choice 1, above): your loved one has no libido when it comes to the thought of having sex with YOU. Sorry, but I warned you it was painful.
Choice 4: Loved one finally gets the message, realizes how important physical intimacy is to you, and, in her decision to meet your needs, re-discovers her own sexuality, enjoys it, and enthusiastically begins the journey with you toward sexual self-awareness, deep and meaningful intimacy, mutual esteem, and, dare I say it, genuine love. And Michigan Man, this choice is easier than any of the others because all it requires is a strong sense of self-delusion, an unshakable belief in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, a pinch of ear-wax from a real leprechaun, mixed up in a potion of dragon urine and unicorn poop.

Sorry, but I warned everyone that I was feeling extra cynical today.

Here's the secret: It's not about sex.
Here are some clues about what is really at issue, from your own words:

lovingly discussed and gave book to wife, she essentially blew it off. . .latent hurt/anger has sometimes bubbled out of HD me in the form of chilly remarks which really don't help things. . . Wife is convinced that I have problem with over-obsessiveness with sex . . . She truly cannot believe that two people who really love each other could ever really split up simply because of such a trivial thing as a large imbalance in their level of sexual desire . . . she rather reluctantly offered to have sex as often as I'd like, if that's what it takes, though she made it somewhat clear she would not be enjoying it.

I added some italics to point out some words that, to me, are significant.

By the way, just to be clear, you're both responsible for the current state of your marriage.

Also, think about this: why would you want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you? And, if sex is so important to you, why aren't you having it?

Hairdog, who's about to leave for home, so don't expect any further responses until Monday.

[MichiganMan]

HDog, very funny and thoughtful post! Thanks. Incidentally, I looked back at your earliest posts and found them interesting. My wife is a bit of a feminist also, and has a tendency, I believe, to see sexual relations as another form of male dominance.

Also, think about this: why would you want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you?

Well, the truth is, I don't. Sex with her became unsatisfying long ago, because it was clear that she wasn't into it. Basically, she wants it over with ASAP. And when it is over with, I'd find myself asking, what the F what that all about? Which made it less likely for me to initiate. Honest, going back to the old days(assuming my longterm memory is not just fantasy), I really never viewed myself as an incompetent lover.

[sat567]

My wife is a bit of a feminist also, and has a tendency, I believe, to see sexual relations as another form of male dominance.

You're doomed. Or, just say to her, "Yeah. Of course it is. Now just don't go worrying your pretty little head about it anymore." It helps if you pat her head while saying this. It also helps if nothing sharp is within reach. For a few days.

Hairdog

[Lillieperl]

She truly cannot believe that two people who really love each other could ever really split up simply because of such a trivial thing as a large imbalance in their level of sexual desire.

Welcome aboard, MM.

Usually IMHO it's not the absence of SEX as such (meaning IC) but a lack of affection, physical gestures during the day, sexy remarks, kisses, holding hands, snuggling, etc. that is the hallmark of the SSMs that we talk about here (and live). There's the feeling that our partner just doesn't find us physically attractive, has lost interest in our bodies, has lost interest in giving/receiving pleasure in a sexual context.

MM, does your wife do any of these things? Or have these gestures gone by the wayside, too?

[Kettricken]

My wife is a bit of a feminist also, and has a tendency, I believe, to see sexual relations as another form of male dominance.

Well, then, she should tie your ass down to the bed sometimes and exercise a little dominance of her own. If she thinks it's all about male dominance, she's not doing it right.

Sorry, I am just so *over* women with this attitude. I'm a bit of a feminist too. Sort of. Just not that kind.

None of that was helpful, but hey .... welcome aboard!

[Burgbud]

All right, so I've been waxing philosophical for the last few days, right here in my head, and now it's just gotta escape. I don't think I'm about to say anything original I just gotta get this in a bag and tie it up for my own sake.

The biggest problem in an M like MM describes isn't the lack of sex (though that certainly sux). It's that the couple doesn't have the ability to sit down together, recognize that what's a problem for one is a problem for both and work together to come up with a solution for the problem. That's a bit broad, but here's my example.

I'm a messy person. I've been living on my own long enough now that I have to face the fact. I'm *particularly* messy in the bedroom. I've got baskets of clean laundry waiting to be put away. I've got a pile of shirts on my bed that need to be ironed as well as some clothes that got folded last laundry cycle but never put away. I've got bags and boxes here and there from when I moved in November. They may or may not get put away.

So imagine I was messy like this except I was married, and my wife came to me one day and told me she my messes were a problem for her. I could tell her, "Well, the messes don't bother me. You must be some sort of neat freak. I'm not going to do anything about it." Then if she kept on b!tching, I'd tell her, "Look, lots of people are messy. That's just the way it is. People get tired of picking things up. Why do you always want everything picked up all the time? It's a lot of effort and I'm just not that into it. It doesn't do anything for me. Whenever you pressure me to put things away it makes me want to leave them out more. Leave me alone about it." If she kept bringing it up I'd start rolling my eyes and probably avoiding her. Eventually she'd really have had it and I'd say, "What are you going to do, divorce me and split up our children's family because I don't pick things up the way you want? Are you really that shallow?" Maybe I'd start picking stuff up when I could tell she was getting sick of it but I wouldn't like it. I'd sigh a lot and make it plain that I was only doing it because she was henpecking me. I'd make the whole thing as unpleasant as possible, or at least unpleasant enough.

The real point of this story is from my viewpoint, it's basically true. I don't care about picking stuff up (my ex-or-whatever-wife would probably say that story illustrates our M pretty well). I don't think I should have to if it's not in the way.

So why should I?



Is the issue in that scenario the messes on the floor or the fact that my wife and I have no ability to solve a problem?

[Lillieperl]

I think the essence of the problem is that neither of you allows for the validity of the other's viewpoint. As hairdog has said before, his W simply doesn't accept that his pov is reasonable, that his desire is reasonable. Does he accept that her pov is reasonable?

Let's look at that (just using hd as an example):

1. hairdog's pov: regular sexual contact is a reasonable thing to want/expect in a marriage

2. mrs hd's pov: it is reasonable to expect conflict over sex and or no regular sex in a marriage (her experience AS A DIVORCE LAWYER is that most couples [that she sees] disagree over sex, so she assumes this is reasonable)


In your example, Burg:

1. Burg's pov: it's reasonable to have a messy bedroom

2. W's pov: it's reasonable to have a neat bedroom

If each of you can accept that the other's pov makes a certain amount of sense, then you can work on solving the problem. To me this ability to respect a pov that is different from your own is a necessary but not sufficient condition for reaching a solution (and chances are, that solution will be a compromise).

In the hairdog example, harder to see either one having any genuine respect for the other's pov.

[Kettricken]

You are brilliant. You may have just come up with the ultimate metaphor for a SSM.

The answer is, the problem is not that there are messes on the floor nor that you and your wife lack basic problem solving skills. The problem is that you are refusing to acknowledge or address the problem, which is, you are being inconsiderate in a *shared space*.

No one would argue that it's your stuff, to dispose of as you choose. However, unless you're talking about a private haunt such as a so-called office, she has to deal with your crap being strewn hither and yon too. It may limit her ability to find her stuff, when your stuff is visually cluttering all available surfaces. It may make it difficult if not impossible to even store her stuff. If she is a person (like many) who feels emotional peace in a tidy and organized environment and constant tension in a disorderly one, you make that peace difficult if not impossible for her to attain in her own home. All because you are being inconsiderate in a shared space. Her choices are, settle for an environment which is inimical to her needs, leave her own home, or pick up your stuff for you, assuming you will even let her and that she can muster the energy consistently after already picking up all her (not inconsiderable) stuff. Can you say "resentment", kiddies? She shouldn't expect you to "convert" and become a neat freak overnight, but damn, where's the love???

Consider a monogamous sexual relationship to be "shared space" and see where that takes you.

People get so hung up on "My body! My rights!", yes fine excellent .... but they forget that they mutually and freely decided to share that space, at least to an extent. In the shared space of a monogamous marriage, what they do or don't do or won't even consider or acknowledge has a *massive* impact on their partner.

Be considerate in shared space. That really hit me, for some reason. I am the designated slob in our relationship, and it does impact my husband negatively when things aren't tidy. I mean, I try ... but you've really made me "re-view" it from the standpoint of, how would I like it if he was as dilatory about our sexual space as I sometimes am with putting my crap away???

You may be recieving the manly equivalent of a dozen roses from him .... what would that be? A case of microbrew?

Thanks, dude.