Questions for DBing Men

[fooled again]

To all the men posting in Infidelity,

I read your posts regularly to try to learn more about how men think, b/c I realize that I wasn't able to read my H until it was too late and he started an A. And then for over a year after I found out, I still wasn't able to read him and allowed myself to believe the A was over when all the signs were there telling me it wasn't. Thank you guys, for being able pour out your hearts to each other (in a way I feel like I'm evesdropping when you men are all posting to each other) - I'm learning much.

It's helping me to stay hopeful that many of you are so dedicated to your families and so strong and willing to let your W's burn through the insanity that they have chosen & be there to pick up the pieces, if there are any left by then. Even those of you that say you have given up, I can still hear the tiny sound of hope that lives in your hearts, like Horton (i.e. Dr. Seuss).

I hope that in my H's heart is that same hope for us, that same dedication to me and our family. My suspicions have been raised and trust is a hard thing to regain, but I don't want to detach myself to the point that I don't want him anymore, which point it sounds like some of you have reached.

So, I'm looking to pick the minds of the men on this forum for answers and/or insights you men may have about:

1) How do I detach while having suspicions or knowledge of an ongoing A and still leave the door open to reconciliation? How do I detach while letting him know that I still love him and want to work on my M?

It's something I'm having trouble with. I'm working hard on GALing, not calling, not asking many questions, letting him know that I'm doing my thing. I engage in self talk to convince myself that it doesn't matter, but in doing so I can actually feel myself caring less and less whether my M can be saved. Lately I find myself seeing more and more negatives about him and have been asking myself if I really do want him back.

2) How should I interpret his flip flop behavior? Do I put more weight on the loving actions he shows, or the distant behavior?

Sometimes he acts very loving, demonstrative, doing nice things for me, calling often. Sometimes he acts distant, withdrawn. I sense that there is something there, below the surface, and I always go back to OW in my mind.

2) How should I react when he seems to trying to show me that he is bothered by something but denies there is anything bothering him when I ask? Sometimes he does tell me what's bothering him, which makes this even more confusing.

3) When I do catch him not being fully honest about something seemingly insignificant, is there some way to determine if that necessarily means that he is still seeing OW? Could there be any other explanation for him not telling me the truth about every single thing? Do you guys sometimes hold back info or not tell your W/GF the whole story - is this really "normal" guy behavior (that is when your Rs were not in trouble)?

My H turned out to be a first class liar, lying to everyone about everything (me, OW, his friends & coworkers).I am left wondering if this is just about the A or if he is a pathological liar (some of his lies have been mundane, but many have been spectacular). I read your posts and see that your W's are pretty open about their A's, compared to my H, and I'd like to say, and I know this may sound hollow, but at least you know what's going on. I have been living with the unknown for 2 yrs, and I just don't know how much longer I can do this.

4) Would you take your Ws back if they had a change of heard, even after they divorced you, or do you believe there is a point at which there is "no turning back"?

Thank you for your honesty and insight. You are wonderful men and deserve so much support for what you are trying to do. I wish you all good luck in your quests.

FA

[mrarow]

No expert here just devoted Dad and Husband wanting to save marriage. Your question #1 I am still tiring to find that happy medium but have not got there yet. Feel free to read my threads and see what I mean.
#2 I hear your supposed to believe 50% of what you see and less than that of what you hear!
#3 I do not lie to my wife anymore at all about anything. Its wrong. I am tiring not to be suspicious and not snoop anymore at all. it is a cheezeless tunnel!
#4 I do not know if there is a time when I will give up on wanting a future with my Wife anymore. I have not reached that point yet and don't see it in the distant future. I feel if I don't give up I can't lose right? I am tiring to come to grips with the fact that if she goes with the OM and leaves the house I will have to rethink my position but may very well still wait till that self destructs which it most likely will with all the baggage and heartbreak it carries with it. Time is my friend and I will wait and see what the future will have to offer.

I hope this helps some but its just my opinion for what that's worth. I am no expert as my thread will show. My situation is I am just getting a grip on the Rollorcoaster ride to Get a life in all of this.

[Michael Mc C]

Wow. I have never looked at it from MY point of view, as in if I was the one needing 'rescuing'. Believe it or not, your post brought tears to my eyes.

Okay, so here we go.

1) How do I detach while having suspicions or knowledge of an ongoing A and still leave the door open to reconciliation? How do I detach while letting him know that I still love him and want to work on my M?

This, I think, is a unisex issue. I wish I knew... Detaching does not mean giving up your love for someone. It is the realization that YOU cannot do anything to fix anyone other than you. With practice you eventually come to the realization that this person's actions cannot affect you - for your own good. You don't like it, you think it's reckless but you cannot stop it and you must not let the behavior have an impact on you. Focus on you.

2) How should I interpret his flip flop behavior? Do I put more weight on the loving actions he shows, or the distant behavior?

Again, wish I knew - LOL!! Practice. When he's loving does it seem sincere? When he's distant, does it appear forced? That is what I see in my sitch. My wife distances herself on purpose (IMO). She lets her guard down and that gives me hope. Is there anything in particular that ellicits his behavior, for good or for bad. That's what you should look at. If I do x and husband does y, should I continue doing x or not? However: If x is not who you really are, don't do it. Do not compromise your morals, principles, self-identity just to bring your husband back around. It will backfire because you want him attracted to your true self.

3) How should I react when he seems to trying to show me that he is bothered by something but denies there is anything bothering him when I ask? Sometimes he does tell me what's bothering him, which makes this even more confusing.

This may be a guy thing. I was not always forthcoming with problems I was having. My job, finances, etc. My wife, in my opinion at the time, shouldn't be worried about MY responsibilities. I know this is wrong. When he tells you that something is bothering him, you need to take pay close attention to that. Men, in general, do not share problems unless they are looking for help. This is my opinion. I remember plenty of conversations where my wife wanted to help with something that I didn't WANT help with. What really hurt, however, is when I asked for help and she ignored me. That was the start of our problems. I don't blame her, I blame our communication.

4) Would you take your Ws back if they had a change of heard, even after they divorced you, or do you believe there is a point at which there is "no turning back"?

Interesting point. When we were dating my wife and I broke up for a few months and she was seeing a guy (believe it or not from Virginia - read my thread for the comedy there). We were not married and so whatever she did was not that big a deal to me. However, now that we are married, I cannot imagine taking her back if she is ever physical with another man. I haven't been there in our marriage yet so I can't say for sure how much this would trouble me.

If my wife had a change of heart tomorrow, no doubt I would take her back. If we divorced, I know the answer is the same. However, I have not reached a point in my detachment where there COULD be any doubt. I love her. I want to be married to her. There may come a day that neither of these are true. So in short, yes, I believe there can be a point of no return however we have not reached that.

So... In my opinion anyone who is willing to FIGHT for their marriage is a wonderful person. I don't know if my insight will help in any way but I look at the DB'ing ladies and wish my wife had the moxy to do this. I wish she looked for help when things were going bad.

Keep in mind that the above is the opinion of one man, who has been at this for only 4 months.

[drz]

fooled again,

I read your post and thought, "Is she talking about my wife?" This midlife crisis, hormonal turmoil, rite of passage, or in my mind rocket ship to Planet La La, seems to be a cross-gender problem. There are amazing men and women fighting here to save their marriages, and their spouses appear to behave in almost identical ways:

- Step 1 Make sure you are happily married for 10ish years and have lovely young kids. Make sure your spouse has no clue what's about to happen.
- Step 2 Just when your spouse is totally relaxed, and feels he has the most secure marriage, drop the "bomb"
- Step 3 Make sure you use the "Infamous Quotes Book" to shred the marriage, and spouse to pieces. They need to know how miserable you have always been, and how you need to start living again.
- Step 4 Goto the WAS Store and immediately order the kit that turns you into the most selfish person on this planet
- Step 5 Ignore all common sense, morals and values, and start mixing with people from the underbelly of society. Ideally you should have an affair.
- Step 6 The madness continues for an undefined amount of time possibly stretching into years. Then you wake up.
- Step 7 Either you are lucky and your spouse is still there for you, or you spend the rest of your days wondering what you threw away

I believe the above is not the "Stairway to Heaven" but the "Descent into Hell" that applies to most WASs (man or woman). The key question for us LBSs is where we will be at Step 7. Do we love our WASs enough to stick around? Or more appropriately, have we GALled enough to be oblivious to our WASs, and maybe are around when they wake up? This question can only be answered by each individual. For me, I'll always love my wife (she's already betrayed our marriage vows by having an affair), and will always be here for her. I believe she's in a difficult and confused place, and she did not plan to be there and I need to fulfill my marriage vows by being there in her time of need. Sounds great in theory, but is almost impossible in practice.

The only gender difference I can think of is the fact that men aren't really talkers. If we have a problem, then we'll probably withdraw into ourselves (maybe go hang out in the shed or den), and try to come up with a solution. If we need the help of our wives then we'll ask, though it might be too much for the male ego to seek female input. Therefore don't interpret your husband's behaviour as purposefully evasive, he's just being a guy.

In respect of your other points regarding detaching and responding to his "flip-flopping", I'd recommend you focus on yourself. You've told hime you love him, you are still there for him, and I'm sure he knows this in moments of clarity. The minute you start to drift away, is probably the precise moment that he'll wake up.

Good luck,
drz