In Support of Strong Puppy

[MJontheMend]

Okay, first off I should note that boy monkeys and puppies break many a contract themselves due to immaturity. Even cows and St.Bernards break contracts for reasons like "I can't let the baby cry in the crib even though I know I should." Really what the cow/St. Bernard are usually guilty of is letting their partner out of the contract due to excessive sensibility.

A contract isn't a contract unless it is enforceable. Therefore, I think much of what you are saying is true. However, I think you may be confusing the lionesses inability to honor a contract with her refusal to exactly sign a contract to begin with. Lions do this too. As in "I wish you would remember to take out the trash."..."Yeah, okay, whatever, I'm watching the game. Quit blocking the screen." Has a contract been made in this instance? Will the lion get grumpy if he hears "You said you would remember to take out the trash!" the following week? Will he feel a sense of shame for violating a sacred contract made with his word which is his honor?

When you reveal yourself as vulnerable in regards to a contract, you let your partner know how valuable it is to you. It's really just the opposite side of the same coin by which you let your partner know its value by strongly enforcing the contract. For instance, consider the difference between stating to a woman "I will leave you if you cheat on me." and stating "I will leave you if you cheat on me because I care very deeply about fidelity." or simply stating "I care very deeply about fidelity.". If the woman replies "I understand." she hasn't made a contract but she will feel more like she has done you wrong because of the latter statement rather than the former. If a woman says "I will not cheat on you because I understand that you care deeply about fidelity." it is quite possibly a better contract than if she says "I will not cheat on you because I understand that you will leave me if I do." because the cow is a better co-signer on a contract than the bunny.

[Stigmata]

Boy this thread just keeps getting better and better. Extremely informative.

If a woman says "I will not cheat on you because I understand that you care deeply about fidelity." it is quite possibly a better contract than if she says "I will not cheat on you because I understand that you will leave me if I do." because the cow is a better co-signer on a contract than the bunny.

Pleasure to make your acquaintances, mammalphors.

Now if you will excuse me, little bunny (carefully stepping over powder puff tail....

Beggin' your pardon, cud-chewin' bovina )skirting around Elsie)

Thank you for your offers but I do believe I see a real live human non-mammalphor female yonder with a better deal than you both:

"I will not cheat on you because I deeply care about fidelity."

But judging from the way she flickers in the haze and the latest posts on this thread it's becoming more and more clear I am chasing a mirage.

-Stigmata-

[MJontheMend]

"I will not cheat on you because I deeply care about fidelity."

Kind of like "I won't sexually neglect you because I deeply care about sexuality.". I wish it worked that way too.

[MJontheMend]

I guess the question is "Why doesn't it work that way?"

Really, I shouldn't have used faithfulness as my example. All I can say is that I've always been HD. I've been sexually active for 27 years of which I spent 19 in a SSM and I have never cheated on a man and I've never withheld sex except for purposes of increasing arousal. When I was casually dating NG and he told me that he was talking to his sons about the birds and the bees and he said he was also going to talk to him about relationships and how to avoid heartbreak, right then I "knew" that I had to be kind to him because he was somebody who had a heart that could be broken. I don't cheat because it's chicken-sh*tted and I don't cheat because it's unkind. I suppose that it is quite possible that there are people who don't cheat for better reasons.

The problem is that sometimes we do things that are unkind because we don't know that they are unkind because we don't see the other person's vulnerability in that regard. For instance, I know this is a lame example, but I would make more of an effort to "stay attractive' if I were in a committed relationship again because I now better understand male sexual vulnerability in that regard. Because I have gained that understanding, I would consider it unkind if I didn't make the effort.

However, every kind intention of the cow has to be matched with a boundary strongly enforced by the lioness and a strong show of vulnerability by the bunny and a strong show of selfishness by the monkey or I'll always be picking up crying puppies from their cribs and neglecting my own animals.

[Burgbud]

(Corri) Why do you say it makes her grumpy?

I just needed a reason why she wouldn't do it just because it's the right thing to do. Hell, I don't know why women don't honor contracts. For illustrative purposes, any reason will suffice.

I was talking in terms of honoring contracts because that's the language Mojo used, but I'm using it the way you use "honor", if I'm understanding you correctly. I'm talking about keeping your word; doing what you say you're going to do. If a guy tells me he's going to do something, I'm confident he'll do it. If a single woman who's interested in me (doesn't have to be romantic interest) tells me she's going to do something, I'm confident she'll do it. If a married woman tells me she's going to do something, I'm fairly confident she'll do it. If a single woman tells me she's going to do something...it's a crapshoot. Near as I can tell, the fact that she told me she'd do it has no bearing on whether or not it actually gets done. If she feels like doing it when the time rolls around, she'll do it, otherwise, forget it.

To me, this is what you're describing when you talk about gender differences regarding honor.

On a related note, I'm starting to really enjoy married women. I was having a late dinner with some married friends this evening and I told them one of my recent "do what works" stories because they have a peripheral interest in the outcome. When I was done the guy said, "Really?" and you could tell he thought I'd been harsh but his wife jumped in and said, "Yes, that's what you have to do or she'll walk all over you."

[Kettricken]

You all will have to forgive me if this is even less coherent than usual. Death in the Afternoon. Unfortunately, it's evening.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the virtues of loyalty vs. honor on this thread have me a bit fogged. In practice, they seem like exactly the same thing. However, loyalty seems more like a virtue chosen out with reference to the other ... acting in loyalty out of a sense of bonding and consideration of the other's agenda and feelings first and foremost. Regardless, it's *personal*. Whereas honor seems more self-focused and theoretical. In that, honor is what you do with relation to your own code of ethics, regardless of one's actual *emotions* toward the recipient of said fidelity (in this case).

Do you all really think men and women are *that* different? 'Cause I question that. I think this whole discussion is thrown off for me because I have plenty of cow but no (as far as I can tell) actual *maternal* instincts. When all the girls my age were cooing over babies, I was over playing tag with the boys or something. Damnit, I just like boys. Whereas I've never had the vaguest idea what to do with a baby. Some things never change, apparently.

All I know is, my sense of honor has kept me this side of the fence (if only just) when my sense of loyalty was shot to hell by frustration and resentment.....

Blackfoot and maybe Stig, what the hell rocks have you been finding these women under????

Burgbud, you cannot respect women too much. Same for men. Kowtowing and placating and princessing and pedestaling are not forms of respect. Respect says, "I trust you to save yourself and calm yourself down, to a degree ... I know you are competent." Respect also says, "I trust you to not kick the damn puppy dog."

BTW, to a general audience, what the hell is this prejudice against the puppy? How unreasonable is that? Like every man doesn't have a puppy. What kind of LTR will thrive on pretending that isn't so? God knows I have no wish to spend an inordinate amount of time cowing the puppy. That is hell on desire. But come on. In a serious relationship (read: marriage) any man is going to have his puppy moments. It's authentic. If I was with a man who caved up whenever his puppy might be making an appearance, I would feel like he didn't trust me to care well for his puppy, whereas I am perfectly competent with puppies. (Again, I don't know where you guys are finding these women.) If he can't trust me with the whole zoo, why the hell is he with me at all? What motivation do I then have to expose my bunny? He gets to be one up by not having a puppy, but I still should display my bunny so he can be all rescuing and knightly? Sucks to that. Everyone wants to be the saviour sometimes. Nor would I desire a (committed) relationship where *nobody* shows their vulnerable animal. What's the point? Are we all not equally human and flawed and vulnerable?

Very slightly inebriated message ends.

[MJontheMend]

If a guy tells me he's going to do something, I'm confident he'll do it. If a single woman who's interested in me (doesn't have to be romantic interest) tells me she's going to do something, I'm confident she'll do it. If a married woman tells me she's going to do something, I'm fairly confident she'll do it. If a single woman tells me she's going to do something...it's a crapshoot.

At first I couldn't make heads or tails of this but I think I've figured it out. People will act honorably in relationship to you if they respect you. The odds are pretty good that if a single woman isn't attracted to you it is because she doesn't respect you. If I get really primitive in my analysis, I would say that women will make false contract with men they don't respect and aren't attracted to and the reason for this is that men are bigger and stronger. In situations where a man might be compelled to fight for his honor a woman has to behave in a manner that would be dishonorable if she were a man because of the inherent power dynamic, especially if she has children to protect. Women have an instinctive fear that a man who is emotionally weak (not vulnerable!) might choose to physically harm her or her children. Is the wolf approaching a wolf with a strong puppy or a wolf with a weak puppy? Should I find his muscles attractive or menacing? If a man shows a strong puppy you sense that he may exchange care for care. If a man shows a weak puppy you fear that he may bash your bunnies brains out against a rock so that your cow will be free to care for his puppy.

The moment I consider as the downhill turning point of my marriage was the moment when my 2bx chose to throw a chair when I suggested that he might need to get a better job since we had a baby and another on the way. He protected his weak puppy with his dysfunctional wolf and I made false contract with him by letting him win that fight. I had no choice but to make false contract but I should have chosen to make true contract as soon as possible by, for instance, locking him out of the house the next time he left and putting his stuff on the lawn.

Of course, oftentimes, in these modern times, money holds the power not muscle. Anyways, this has a lot to do with why I say it is chicken-sh*tted to cheat on a man. You're bringing in outside muscle, one way or the other.

[SolidMechanic]

On a related note, I'm starting to really enjoy married women. I was having a late dinner with some married friends this evening and I told them one of my recent "do what works" stories because they have a peripheral interest in the outcome. When I was done the guy said, "Really?" and you could tell he thought I'd been harsh but his wife jumped in and said, "Yes, that's what you have to do or she'll walk all over you."

Burg,

Would you mind elaborating on "do what works", with some examples? In particular, how it might relate to long term relationships? You could post on my thread if you'd like.

SM

[MJontheMend]

BTW, to a general audience, what the hell is this prejudice against the puppy? How unreasonable is that? Like every man doesn't have a puppy. What kind of LTR will thrive on pretending that isn't so?

Exactly the point of this thread. All men have puppies. Women want to be used but not abused, so any woman with a grain of sense will want a man with a strong puppy rather than a weak puppy. A woman who has a weak bunny will over self-protect with her lioness or, perhaps, clever monkey and challenge or poke at a man until he reveals whether his puppy is strong or weak. A woman with a strong bunny is more likely to "test" a man by making the bunny vulnerable.

[Corri]

I was talking in terms of honoring contracts because that's the language Mojo used, but I'm using it the way you use "honor", if I'm understanding you correctly. I'm talking about keeping your word; doing what you say you're going to do.

Okay. I don't know if it makes her grumpy... though I suppose keeping your word and doing what you say you are going to do when you really don't feel like it might make anyone grumpy.

I was talking in terms of honoring contracts because that's the language Mojo used, but I'm using it the way you use "honor", if I'm understanding you correctly. I'm talking about keeping your word; doing what you say you're going to do. If a guy tells me he's going to do something, I'm confident he'll do it. If a single woman who's interested in me (doesn't have to be romantic interest) tells me she's going to do something, I'm confident she'll do it. If a married woman tells me she's going to do something, I'm fairly confident she'll do it. If a single woman tells me she's going to do something...it's a crapshoot. Near as I can tell, the fact that she told me she'd do it has no bearing on whether or not it actually gets done. If she feels like doing it when the time rolls around, she'll do it, otherwise, forget it.

I'd say in a general sense, I probably agree with this. There are always exceptions to the rule, of course...

"Really?" and you could tell he thought I'd been harsh but his wife jumped in and said, "Yes, that's what you have to do or she'll walk all over you."

And her sense of loyalty is threatened if she can walk all over you. Maybe that is consistent with your experience of single women... there is no level of care or loyalty...