I'm sure you feel you haven't done anything to "make" her feel UNSAFE, and that's true. The reverse is also true. You can't make her feel safe. You can't MAKE anyone feel anything.
There is something I'm picking up on with you... you come here to complain about your poor sex life with your wife... you build a pretty solid case against her, I might add... we all show up here and give you advice (based on what you've written and our collective experiences)... and then you go on to tell us why you're going to hang in there.
You have a solid habit of living a roller coaster life. It is CLEARLY evident in the last three posts/responses you've made.
I think you are on the wrong thread, honestly. There are all kinds of threads here for marital problems, communication problems, etc.
LACK OF SEX IS THE VERY LEAST OF YOUR PROBLEMS.
You are solidly entrenched, it seems to me, in relationship drama. Not only are you not seemingly perplexed by your wife's constant and consistent 360 behavior... you write about it like a weather report... "it's the weather, what can you do... now if I could just get some sex...."
To heck with marriage counseling at this point... get your own rear end into individual counseling, go to a few DOZEN No More Mr. Nice Guy seminars... something... but DO SOMETHING. With the exception of CeMar, that's what most people do around here... roll up their sleeves and get busy. They vent, sure, but they get busy.
If you don't want to do that, that's cool... I'd just really hate to see this thread become infested with CeMar clones...
I do appreciate the advice.. and Corri, I appreciate your candor. Its true I do come here and vent and its true that *I* have to take some action and try and get this figured out or pull the plug. Complaining about it isnt going to solve anything. Partly I come here and explain my situation for validation that maybe im not crazy to think this isnt a *normal* relationship. Something needs to be done and I just dont know where to start or what to do. Counseling is a good start and I would definately be willing to do that. I guess im looking for a magic bullet that will make everything ok again and its just not out there.
You're NOT crazy. What you expect in a relationship is totally "normal." No magic bullet. Sorry. Counseling may help, because in counseling you work on your FEELINGS and it's your feelings that are the source of your distress. Do you see that? It's not your W's behavior; it's the fact that you want her behavior to be different and that you cannot change her. This is entirely legitimate and you're having a perfectly understandable reaction to her behavior. But it's YOUR reaction that is making you miserable. If SHE cannot change, then your reaction will either drive you away or make you nuts. Counseling can help you sort things out.
If she feels like a failure, then she has stuff to work on. Counseling may help her feel better, and that may or may not motivate her to change her behavior.
I've read your original posting and have followed it with some interest. At first, I felt just like most other posters: "Get out now!"
But as I continue to read and see your story unfold, I can see there has been a lot that has been left out, or at least not owned by you.
Corri correctly points out that you have other VERY serious problems in your R and that "LACK OF SEX IS THE VERY LEAST OF YOUR PROBLEMS."
Let's see... You two are in your mid thirties and get engaged and understandably, throw your own wedding.
You, by your own admission, contribute nothing to the planning of this wedding and leave it all to her. Except maybe when you critisize her for overthinking on the selection of pens...
Now you go on to mention that 2 weeks prior to Christmas, she talks about wanting to visit her Dad, you provide some wise cracks about assuming and "silly me"... I wonder how that conversation REALLY went.
So now on your first Christmas as a married couple, you are kissing her and you "finally" get her interested in having sex with you. Within minutes after the act, you are out of bed and on the couch. Now you want to go to a movie and when she balks at that and tells you "she won't mind", you go by yourself! On your first Christmas! Hello?
You say she has told you that she doesn't feel safe talking to you and that you always try and listen, except when she starts attacking... (smartass) Is that when she opens her mouth? (/smartass)
Now to top it off, you talk about her "feeling safe". In your explanation, you tell us about how she makes 1/3 of your salary, you pay all these bills and her 10K ring... Something tells me she is well aware of all that regardless of you saying you NEVER throw this stuff up.
Look, I'm sorry to slam you with this 2X4 but you really need to take a good hard look at yourself. I am talking from experience. I blamed my exWife for all of our issues because of the lack of sex in out 22 year marriage. Now after 2 years of divorce, I can honestly look back and see all (or at least many) of MY contributions that lead us to that final point.
You are on your second marriage, I understand that you don't want to be twice divorced... What was the failure in that previous marriage? Any similarities?
From looking at this from the outside, I would have to tell you that I think your wife is a LOT closer to calling quits to this marriage then you are.
NW Repeat after me: THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET. You can't change her. The best you can do is change yourself into the best you can be so that you are attractive and desirable, but you have to do those changes for yourself, not for her or anyone else or it will grow old and feel fake. You need to find yourself first, figure out what makes you happy and then go do it. Then when she sees you being yourself, then she can tag along or not. Warning: in the process of finding yourself, you may very well find that she is not for you. In any event, I envy your position recognizing that there is a problem and seeking solutions so early in your M, as you have less inertia to overcome to put the R on a better track, and less baggage to dispense with should you decide to split. I wish I had found something like this BB 20 years ago when I was a newlywed in about the same shoes you are in. Also, I'm finding it is probably easier to find a mate that aligns with your preferences than it is to work within an existing R while finding yourself and discovering what she is all about. As Mojo (I think it was her) said, in the context of dating, if you don't mesh well you just move along to the next candidate but in a committed LTR, you are more inclined to try to compromise part of yourself to force the R into working.
It also sounds like you two have a big communications problem. She's as much as told you that she does not feel safe sharing her feelings with you. You may need to work on being more empathic to her feelings, trying to better understand them. That will take time to develop, as she's not going to suddenly open up and let you in. You might try something like a Worldwide Marriage Encounter weekend to pick up some of the tools and techniques to start sharing feelings a bit better. As Corri said, the sex (or lack thereof) is the least of your problems. Look carefully at yourself to find your contribution to the current state of affairs. That's the only part you can do anything about. Good luck.
Again, I appreciate the advice. And I am willing to look at myself and the contribution ive made to the way things are. I do try to be understanding and I try to talk to her and I try to be supportive. I may have come off like a selfish [censored], like its all me me me, but its really not how I am. I am willing to own up to things that I ahev done and im willing to look into ways to make things better. By the same token, I feel like she isnt willing to own up to her part of the way things are. Yes I agree that we have many more problems than just sex. Ive always thought that the lack of sex is just a symptom of a bigger problem that we just cant seem to get through. Its difficult to really accurately give both sides of the conversations and convey tone on a message board. The wise cracks are more a sign of the frustration I feel in trying to do what I think is right and what she wants me to do, yet its never right. The bottom line is that we just dont 'get' each other like we used to. I dont know how it happened, it doesnt matter who's fault it is, and I know I havent been the perfect mate either. Ive allowed things to fester for far too long and become resentful about issues because im afraid of having conflict with her. I figure if I can just keep things smooth she'll be happy. I know that makes things even more difficult because im not being honest to my feelings and to her.
Ive given this thread a lot of thought in the past few days. Ive also re-read NMMNG. Ive come up with the following list of expectations for my wife. I plan to give them to her this weekend. I would like everyones opintion -
We have been having difficulties off and on since March as well as I can remember. I admit that I have to take my share of responsibility in the problems. This e-mail isn’t about who’s right and who’s wrong or who had their feelings hurt or to re-hash what has happened between us.
I have come to a point in this relationship that I am unwilling to continue going down this same road weve been stuck in for the past 7-8 months. Sure weve had some good times in there, but weve also had a lot of bad that didn’t need to be as bad as it was. Ive become someone I don’t want to be. I was never the type to lose my temper and throw things. Or to yell and scream and slam doors. Our personalities are like fire and gasoline now and they didn’t used to be this way. We used to speak to each other with such kindness and respect, now we are always short with each other and distant and we cant seem to be happy together. We used to work together to make each other happy. We used to be kind and giving and responsive and compassionate with each other. I feel that no matter what I do you wont be happy. I feel that youre not willing to put much effort into making me happy. I feel you’ve put it all on my shoulders are unwilling to meet me ½ way in trying to make this relationship work. I feel you continually hurt me to get back for some wrong ive done. I also have a lot of hurt, as im sure you do, that I need to let go of. I have been unable to let it go because I don’t feel close to you. I don’t feel loved anymore because of all the hurt. I want to begin healing our relationship.
That being said, Ive decided to outline MY expectations from this relationship. I would hope you would do the same so we can put the needs on the table and stop arguing about who’s needs aren’t being met and we can stop guessing about what we think the other person wants. I also hope that this will help us get to the point and decide if we want to continue this.
I expect to have sex 2-3 times a week with some oral sex 1-2 times a month. I expect you to enjoy it and help me make it good for you too by giving clear direction and encouragement when you like it. I expect to be able to see your naked body daily. I expect to be able to flirt with you, make sexual innuendos, and occasionally grope you without you becoming angry. I expect to be able to ask you a question and not be exploded at. Example - "hey sugar, how come you get dressed in the closet now?" "GAA WOULD YOU GET OFF MY ASS?? I DID IT ONE TIME AND NOW YOURE ASKING ME ABOUT IT??" I expect you to wear sexier clothes to bed more frequently. A nightgown is much sexier to me than a t-shirt and pants. I expect you to wear stockings for me a few times a month. I expect to be spoken to with respect and kindness instead of disdain and shortness. I expect there to be no sarcasm or snide tone in our conversations or fights, its demeaning and abusive and I wont tolerate it anymore. I expect you to stop drinking until we get our relationship back on track. I expect when I bring up a problem or how I feel that it is not shut down, minimized or twisted to making it my fault that I feel this way. I expect understanding, compassion and empathy. I expect when I bring up a problem that you do not explode into a rage about how ive hurt you and listen and help me come up with solutions. I expect when we talk about problems that it doesn’t turn into the blame game or the “if you’d just (rub my back, take me to dinner, make a date night, put some romance into it, tell me sweet things, buy me meaningful trinkets) id do____” I will GLADLY do those things when WE get back on track. I expect to not be criticized for little things, like the way I drive, the way I eat, the way I dress, because I took the tip for the cab out of my pocket early, because I didn’t know you wanted me to hold your hand, because I bought you hard tacos, etc.. I expect the little things to be let go, like accidentally missing your turn in a board game, darts, leaving the soap in the dish, throwing out popcorn etc. or anything else small. I expect you to accept my apology about the little things and that be the end of it. Not to continue criticizing me and belittling me about it well after the issue is resolved I expect you to not look for things to stay mad about. I expect you to NOT roll your eyes or look away when I kiss you. I expect to be kissed passionately back. I expect you to NOT glaze over and get frustrated if I am not touching you sexually in a way that you like. I expect you to gently give me direction if the way I am touching you isn’t turning you on. I expect NOT to be hurt sexually anymore. By hurt I mean the points above AND not to be denied sex in an ugly and condescending tone. It is ok if yorue not up for it, but you don’t have to hurt me for wanting it. A simple not tonight, or an I’ll make it up to you tomorrow is A LOT less wounding than “Gaa would you just go masturbate?” or a “would you just stick it in, that’s all you want anyways” I expect you to initiate sex a few times a month. I expect you to touch my cock on occasion. I expect us to work together to stop ripping each other apart. I expect us to be playful, flirty, and have fun together again. I expect you to not get angry at me because I am trying to help you. I.e. with the laundry, cleaning, dishes, cooking, or miscellaneous projects, etc. If you don’t like how im doing it, tell me how and I will do it. Don’t just get mad and be mean to me because im not doing it your way. I expect you to control your temper better and work at peace instead of continuing to look for things to be mad about. I expect us to work together for the common good. I expect PATIENCE when I don’t understand something you’re telling me. I expect if you ask me a question and I don’t answer it in a way that you understand to ask a different question. Not to continue asking the same question and get irritated when I give the same answer. I do NOT expect you to be my maid, my chef, my laundry service, or my sexual recepticle. I DO expect to have a fair, balanced, loving, emotionally bonding, giving, generous relationship with you and I am willing to work together to achieve it.
These are my expectations from this relationship. If you are unwilling to work with me on these expectations I do not want to continue this relationship.
Im sorry it has come to this point, but my needs and expectations are valid and important. I want to have a good, rewarding relationship with you. I want us both to feel loved, cherished, cared for. These expectations are what I need to feel loved.
