I am a newcomer to this community and a novice regarding Michele's DBing techniques, and I have a question for those of you who have or are currently working on solving the problem of an SSM with your spouse.
First some background:
My wife and I have been married for over 20 years, have four children (two young adults and two in elementary school), and have been in what seems to be a 'classic' HD-male / LD-female relationship for nearly all of our married lives. You could replace the Debra and Tom in Chapter 1 of SSM with our names, and with only a few modifications have a pretty accurate description of our situation up to last year. We were at the point where we each lived our own separate life, interacted only as necessary, and even slept in separate bedrooms most of the time: and we were both unhappy, lonely, and resentful. I had threatened separation on a few occasions, but could not bring myself to go through with it while we still had children in the house.
Then, last winter, a job change from one side of the country to the other forced us into a six-month separation anyway, while I went to the new job and my wife stayed behind to sell the old house -- and you all know what happened to the housing market this year. At first, the separation seemed like no big deal: we had been pretty much doing our own thing anyway, and it removed the nearly constant sexual tension between us that was present when we were together. As weeks stretched into months, however, I became depressed and passed through my own form of MLC, in which I recognized the pathetic state of my personal relationship with both my wife and children, and I understood that in order to be happy again, I either needed to fish or cut bait; that is, either put forward a genuine and sustained effort to rebuild my marriage or cut ties and seek my happiness elsewhere. I opted for the former.
This past summer we were finally reunited (although the house still hasn't sold), and we have made steady progress in re-discovering each other, rebuilding our friendship, and adding to the once scant list of things that we have in common. All those things that previous marriage counselors had encouraged me to do (such as housework, spending quality time with the family, and courting & romancing my wife), but which I had always been too angry and resentful to do, I found that I could now do, and often with pleasure. We are now into the late fall, the ice is continuing to slowly melt and the Great Desire Divide is slowly shrinking, although it remains as a constant thorn in the side of our marriage: one that we would love to extricate once and for all.
Two weeks ago I discovered Michele's SSM book, and am I not the first person to state that I found it to be an absolute godsend. For the first time, I felt like someone actually understood my point of view, rather than simply treating me like a spoiled child who keeps pitching fits and pouting over not getting the 'candy' that he craves. For once, I felt like I wasn't alone in feeling the way that I did. After reading it, I emailed the link to SSM Chapter 1 to my wife and held my breath, and that evening, we had a heart-to-heart discussion. She "got it." She finally understood the importance of our sexual relationship to me -- and by extension, to us.
Now for the question:
In Part II of SSM, Michele strongly encourages the LD spouse to do a '180' from the usual behavior and "Just Do It": accept an invitation to sexual interaction even when they might not be initially inclined to do so. The option to say "No" still remains, of course, for those times when they truly are not in the mood and it is unlikely that said mood will improve.
Therefore, it seems only fair that in Part III of SSM, the HD spouse should be strongly encouraged to do a '180' from the usual behavior and learn how to accept a "No"...gracefully. Michele addresses this generally, but I wanted to ask all of you for specific examples and suggestions in how to best handle this situation, because this seems harder for me to do than my rational brain says it should be. Once my [YOU'VE JUST BEEN REJECTED...AGAIN!] button gets pressed, I get washed over by a load of old hurts and anguishes, making it very difficult to be gracious at that moment.
Granted, I am (hopefully) now past the stage where I'm likely to pick a fight, rant, rave, or punch holes in the wall (which hurts!), but I do still have a tendency to retreat for the night and sleep on a couch. I have found that if I try to go to bed as usual, I tend to lie there next to her and stew in my own juices for half of the night, while if I retreat to the isolation of my 'cave' (to use John Gray's terminology), I can reduce the duration of that emotional spike and get a decent night's sleep. But from my wife's point of view, she still feels like she's being punished for saying "No": I've gathered up my marbles and stalked off the playground for the night. I can understand this point of view, and have tried splitting the difference somewhat -- coming back to the bedroom some time during the night when I've cooled off -- but the initial cave retreat is still there.
I suspect that as we repair and improve our sexual relationship over time, my initial reaction to her occasional "No" will lessen, and it will become easier and easier to take a "No" when it happens -- that is my hope, anyway. But suggestions as to how to best handle the situation that we have now would be welcome.
My thanks to Michele to a great and much-needed book, and to you all for your suggestions and support.
-- Bagheera
Last edited by Bagheera; 12/06/0706:05 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Ok, here's the deal, it sounds like your W is wiling to work on it with you so, to me, your question is quite silly. YOU too need to work on the M. I understand that you have had literally YEARS of rejection, however, if your W is truly trying to make changes in your sex life, you need to man up and accept it when she's truly not in the mood. You should count yourself lucky that your M seems to be improving in all areas, including your sex life. Instead of being resentful, you should be thankful.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
Just as she agreed to "just do it", unless she was "truly" not in the mood and it was "unlikely" that said mood would improve, you must "just do it". "It", being of course, being cool with her saying "no." You will have to assume that, when she says "no" it is because she is "truly" not in the mood and that it is "unlikely" the mood will change. Don't go behind her words and quiz her about why she says no.
Sometimes it helps me to tell myself, "okay, babe...your loss." Sometimes it even helps to say it out loud to my W, with a wink and a grin. The attitude this broadcasts is "your vagina ain't gold-plated, and you just missed an opportunity to share our love with each other. Oh well, maybe you'll see the light next time."
(Now...don't go saying that last part out loud. Sheesh!)
I think it sounds like you and your W are on the road to a better relationship. Lucky you.
One caveat: If the "no"s start coming out ALL the time, then it's time to have a talk about it. As has been stated on here before, a woman has an absolute right to say "no" to sex...but a wife shouldn't say "no" each and every time. Still, even this discussion shouldn't occur in the heat of a rejection. It should occur when things are calmer.
How about this? Grit your teeth and say, "Ok. Maybe next time." or whatever and then instead of retreating do something for her that involves touch but isn't sexual - I'm thinking foot rub or something. Maybe she would even reciprocate. Just by touching instead of retreating you will both feel some connection (which you are seeking) and she won't feel punished.
Ok, here's the deal, it sounds like your W is wiling to work on it with you so, to me, your question is quite silly.....Instead of being resentful, you should be thankful.
Indeed, I am quite thankful: my post was neither whining nor complaining. And from a rational point of view, I agree with your post completely. But telling someone to "man up" and shut off their feelings is unrealistic. I would prefer to choose not to act on those feelings and get past them as quickly as possible, hence my asking how others have handled this stage of the "recovery," if you will.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Ok, then I'll just say it a bit more gently then and put it as Hairdog did and say, if you can expect and appreciate your W "just doing it" then you should do the same. "just do it" -- accept that she's not always going to say ok and move on and appreciate what you DO have.
I guess the way I see your "problem" and wondering how to deal w/ it is one of those "pick your battles" things
Last edited by RedHeadWife; 12/06/0708:31 PM.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
Kudos to both your wife and you for sticking with it and trying to work toward each other.
It sounds like you know this ... but what you've got is a fine reflex snarl in response to rejection, understandably so. It took a long time to develop that reflexive hurt/anger at "no", and the emotions ain't going away overnight.
You do have the ability to *choose* how how display the emotions, though. Decide ahead of time what the best response would be ... I recommend some variation of the "ok, babe, catch you tomorrow maybe" but whatever works for you .... and then implement that instead of "winging it" in the moment. If you absolutely have to leave the room to clear your head, give yourself a reason; go get a glass of milk or something and ask her if she wants something too ... then come back as soon as possible.
I think you gotta act from your brain, not your gut, on this one. If this means you will be stewing internally for awhile anyhow ... so be it. As long as you and your wife are both working toward each other and giving concrete demonstrations of that, it seems like a small price to pay.
Edited to add: I've been in your position myself and even once things started to turn around, the only thing that truly soothed the reflexive resentment to rejection was time passing in the "improved" state of play. I really fought hard against letting it show though, because it seemed counterproductive to me to "punish" him with my residual emotions considering how much things were continuing to improve.
Last edited by Kettricken; 12/06/0708:48 PM.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
...but what you've got is a fine reflex snarl in response to rejection, understandably so. It took a long time to develop that reflexive hurt/anger at "no", and the emotions ain't going away overnight.
Exactly. And it is this reflexive, irrational response that I am trying to quell here.
Quote:
I think you gotta act from your brain, not your gut, on this one. If this means you will be stewing internally for awhile anyhow ... so be it. As long as you and your wife are both working toward each other and giving concrete demonstrations of that, it seems like a small price to pay.
Agreed.
I will have to be honest in my reaction, however. After knowing each other for as long as we have, she's most likely going to know if I'm stewing over it, even if I don't say or do anything with those emotions -- just as I can usually tell the difference between a 'Just do it' Yes and a 'I'm actually in the mood' Yes. That said, just as I can sincerely appreciate and love her all the more for that "Just do it" Yes, she can learn to appreciate the efforts that I put into being 'cool' with a No, even if I'm not feeling particularly 'cool' about it.
I also like Karen's suggestion, although caution will need to be applied on two fronts. If I think touching her, even in a non-sexual way, will flare up my desire/emotions further, I'll need to recognize this ahead of time and not take that option. Also, I'll need to make it clear (verbally or non-verbally) that I'm after ONLY the non-sexual physical contact, and not simply trying to do a run-around her "No."
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Try just doing what you would do on an evening when you were single if you went out looking for action but for whatever set of reasons didn't manage to score. Since you wouldn't sleep in the same bed as a woman under those circumstances you could maybe just pretend like your wife was your dog when you were single.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You could just try some honesty, you know. If your wife says no, then you can say to her, "I understand you don't want to have sex. It's cool. But please understand that I am frustrated with the situation, and it's going to take me a bit to get over my hurt. I'm not mad at you, I'm just feeling hurt."
In the same way she expects you to understand her right to say no, she also needs to understand your right to your feelings. Sometimes just being able to say it out loud... and maybe a few hugs... might help.
Also, tell her (at a time when sex isn't even on the table)... "honey, it would help me if when you said no, you might say... "no, not tonight, I'm feeling... x, y, z... but I'm willing to give it a go tomorrow night (or whenever night/day/time she is willing)... so that you aren't just left with an unknown. BUT. If she is going to give you a date/place/time, she needs to honor it. If not, then don't say it.
