The best way I can explain this is that it's finally clicked that my life is mine and no longer linked to hers
This took me quite some time for me to come to as well. Don't know that I am there 100% yet, but good for you in being there. It is definitely much easier to deal with while having come to that realization.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1162413&page=2#Post1162413 M-28 W-28 Together 10 years Married 2 years No children Things started taking a turn in 01/07
I just read back through this thread from the big talk with W until now. When I read the talk, I thought, well, there he goes again... It was interesting to read all the stuff that came after in one go.
So here's my question for you now: Looking back on that talk yourself, what would you do differently, if anything? I know you've been waiting for months for W to open up, that you've always said you believe that if you "could just get her to open up" you might get somewhere. What do you say now?
I'll be curious to hear about the date, if it materializes. Not sure if it's the best idea in the world, but I think it could be interesting for you.
By the way, as an aside: some nice writing in there. I particularly dig this metaphor:
Originally Posted By: Heimlich
The door is still propped open should W want to return, but I'm not looking out of the peephole every five minutes any longer.
one, on the defensive part... maybe that is why W never would tell you how she felt. if we are all sensing your defensiveness even though you say you don't feel that way, then I'm sure she perceived it the same. I know you previously mentioned that she never told you how she felt. (that seems to be a very common theme with all of us)
also, you mention that this recent convo would have made you think your headed to reconciliation. I'm wondering if your expectations have sabotaged you in some small way. Even if things start happening in the right direction, we cant just start thinking... yeah, we're going to reconcile!.
just a couple observations, may or may not mean anything.
I do hope that this "date" is just meant for fun, and that both of you do not have plans on getting in a relationship. IMHO I believe this to be best. I believe that there is still hope for your M, and that starting a new R with someone else could damage that hope. I understand the need for people to "move on", but I also believe moving on doesn't necessarily mean finding another partner, and instead it means to continue DBing (because we all should be) and focus on goals and talents, as well as our shortcomings by making ourselves better people and hopefully that also means building a closer relationship with God in the process.
I'm not really saying this AT you heim, but just a general comment.
Me 33 H 34 S9 S3 M 6 yrs (2gether 11 yrs) EA/PA 1/2006 DB 5/2006 H wants D 6/2006 H wants ME 8/2006 H "said" PA/EA over 8/2006 H erased OW off phone! 2/2007
"It is far better 2 choose humility & change oneself, than 2 wait in vain trying 2 chang someone else."
I'll continue to monitor interactions with my W and notice any changes in behavior and keep the door propped open just in case she ever wants to look inside. I owe my girls that. I don't owe her that.BD
I keep rereading the "I don't owe her that." comment. I'm not sure that this is how an LBS should feel.
I believe we should still believe in our vows, even if our spouse does not. I truly believe they are emotionally sick, and we made our vows for sickness and health, better or worse.
I know sometimes for our own sanity, we feel we need to remove ourselves entirely from our Spouse and that saddens me. I know how hard it is though, and I pray for strength for everyone that has to go thru this experience.
Me 33 H 34 S9 S3 M 6 yrs (2gether 11 yrs) EA/PA 1/2006 DB 5/2006 H wants D 6/2006 H wants ME 8/2006 H "said" PA/EA over 8/2006 H erased OW off phone! 2/2007
"It is far better 2 choose humility & change oneself, than 2 wait in vain trying 2 chang someone else."
I keep rereading the "I don't owe her that." comment. I'm not sure that this is how an LBS should feel.
Your point earlier about how I come across as defensive is well taken. I will say that I've always -- and I mean always -- told my W that her opinion matters. That it's what I care about. That I want(ed) to know what she thinks (thought). She stopped sharing. Is that partly because of the way that I interacted with her? Yes. Is that partly because of the way that she interacted with me? Yes. I don't blame her. I've told her, for over a year, that I don't mean to be dismissive. To tell me if something I say bugs her. Until after she decided to leave, she kept those feelings of how I interacted with her and made her feel to herself.
I don't owe her anything. She wasn't a saint. I wasn't a sinner. I wasn't a saint. She wasn't a sinner. We had normal marital miscommunication. I did try to connect with her. I did try to open up to her. She did, looking back, the same to me. We missed each other. Rather than sticking with our M, my W decided that the grass was greener and had an affair. I forgave and forgive her that. I understand how she got to that point. Thing is, my W isn't emotionally sick. She doesn't see the impact that her behavior had on me. The way that she acted made me feel.
DBing is about validating her feelings. Ok. Fine. I've done that. I've agreed that I've had my head up my buttocks for quite a while. I accept that. I regret it. What about her? What does she owe me? I did the best that I could. She decided, again, to withdraw from our M. If she had been open and honest with me and I had not responded, I could say again, yeah, I was a dumba@@. However, she held her true feelings back from me. She did not tell me how she was really feeling. I never had the chance to validate or respond to what she was really feeling inside. In retrospect, I can see what she WAS feeling. At the time, I was trying to deal with my own hurt and do my best to make our R work. Was I perfect? Good lord, no. Did I do the best that I could? Yeah, I did.
So, what do I owe her? Seriously. I hold open the door to being with her again. I would like to be in a R with her again. It's up to her. One day, I'm going to wake up, and that desire is going to be gone. In all honesty, if we didn't have kids, I'd be done by now. She is a very good person. She has a large number of traits that I like. Plus, I like her. All of the things that no one knows about her but me. Those are, as far as I still know, mine. That she likes to shrug her shoulders twice, and rub her hands together when she doesn't know the answer to a question. That she rubs her feet together 5 or 6 times when she first gets into bed. That she's ticklish on the back of her knee and other places. That she frowns and looks up to the right when thinking of an answer to a question. That she lays in bed and sighs for 2 or 3 minutes when getting in bed at night. That she scratches equally with both hands under her boobs when she takes off her bra. How she would lean her forhead against my chest and scratch her head. I miss those things. Yes.
But, she has chosen to withdraw herself from me, despite my efforts to be open to her. Again, what more can I do? What more do I owe her? I can't push a R talk. All I can do is be patient, improve myself, and hope she returns.
Great. Fine. My self, while not perfect, is a good self. I'm fun to be around. I like to goof off. I like to have serious conversations. I can be laugh out loud funny. I am a good person.
Back to Puddle about dating. To me, it's not really "dating" to find someone to be with, but just to spend some time with someone of the opposite sex to see if there's something there. If not. Ok, that's fine. If so, there's nothing holding me back from seeing if that's something that I want. As I've said, there's nothing holding me back from that -- I'm not particularly religious. I don't have the "sanctity of marriage" as something that I turn to in this. Up until recently, I turned to the fact that I chose her as my life partner and loved her as such. There are no church sanctioned religious convictions behind that. I'm not trying to denigrate those who do feel that way. In some ways, I envy those with faith. However, I don't have that. That's not me.
Puddle, so what would I have done differently in the conversation? I can say that I did the best that I could at the time. I was exhausted -- lots of work this week and this was after a 12 hour day. It was totally unexpected. The only thing i would change would be not telling her about how she made me feel. It wasn't really the right place. Though, as I type that, I wonder WHEN the right time would be. I've always felt that she ignored or downplayed my feelings. That lead me to withdraw from her. So, again, I don't want to be with her if she's not going to admit to how she acts makes me feel certain ways. That's not being true to myself. However, to see if that is possible, i should've just shut up. Otherwise, she basically ambushed me. Despite how my post sounded, she did most of the talking.
Maybe my belief that there are no soulmates comes into play here. I believe that there are a wide variety of people that we could be happy with during our lives. We choose one and we choose to stay with them. There are no perfect matches. Everyone has rough edges that you have to learn to deal with -- whatever htose edges are. There is no prince or princess charming.
Quote:
By the way, as an aside: some nice writing in there. I particularly dig this metaphor:
Originally Posted By: Heimlich The door is still propped open should W want to return, but I'm not looking out of the peephole every five minutes any longer.
And I'm glad it's true.
Thanks, Puddle. ST, beyond keeping the door open, what more can I do? Honestly, for me, as I wrote before, at this point, I can't just not do something becasue that might upset a possible/maybe/tenous R with W. That's why I took off my ring. To some it's a sign of committment. I understand that. I kept mine on for 2 or 3 months after W took hers off. However, after awhile, I just felt stupid for keeping it on. Regarding how I live my live/pursue my talents/interact with others, that's how I feel. I don't feel married any longer. I feel stupid for acting/hindering how I would act with anyone based on the assumption that I COULD have a R with W in the future. I don't quite know how to explain it. I guess that, if I ended up living my life expecting my W to return, and that happened, but I passed up ooportunities to go places, meet new people, etc. to get there, I'd end up bitter. Rather, I'm choosing to live my life with an open heart, open to the possibility that, yes, I might meet nad fall in love wiht someone else (note, might, I'm not looking). At the same time, I'm still open to being with my W again. I know that sounds odd. It feels odd in my head. It's hard to explain to myself, much less type out. Yet, it feels honest and true.
Anyway, I'm going play some pool with co-workers.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
I think the point might be that since W isn't in a place yet to recognize what she did to contribute to the demise of the R, that you have to put all your stuff on hold, in DB world. I know you're looking for her to see her part, and to see how you've changed.
The way I figure it is if she never comes around, never wants to give the R another chance (and "never" is something only you can define---could be by next week), then you're free to tell her all this stuff without worrying that it'll push her away. But in the meantime you button it and hope to entice her back with the new you.
By that point (never) it wouldn't make any difference anyway, as far as your R is concerned, though maybe her rational self would be able to absorb some of it, sometime.
It sounds to me like you're in a pretty good place, looking forward to the future and recognizing first that there is one, second that it's going to be great, and third that you'll certainly find a wonderful partner if you want one.
I know W ambushed you with her talk, but it would've been interesting to see how she'd responded (maybe not immediately) if you had only listened and not thrown your own stuff in.
You're right: she made a lot of mistakes. And frustratingly, as the WAW, she's not admitting to any of it, to you, at least. I hope for you that someday you'll hear that from her instead of me. I know that you're keeping the door open, and I think that's pretty much all you can do right now.
Have you had any more thoughts about revisiting that night when you lost it? I still think there's a lot there for you to explore for yourself, whether or not you get to with W.
I know you feel W isn't "emotionally sick" = which was the best way I could put it... but when you guys got married, when things were good, would you have thought she would ever do what she did? Is she really the same person? I would have to think the answer is no, but I don't know. It seems that most people who go thru this are shocked by what happened (at first until they start realizing the hidden signs) and really can't understand how they are hurting us in such a way, and how easily they can abandon their vows, especially when kids are involved.
that's why I say they are emotionally sick. I really feel your w is not herself yet. someday she's going to look back at have a different view of everything.
I understand your point, and I can't force my views on anyone. And because I look at it at a christian viewpoint, my whole belief is that if you have faith in God, he will restore your M.
I kept my ring on for over half a year and I didn't feel stupid at all. I didn't feel stupid, even though he was screwing another girl who he thought was the perfect girl for him. But it was my faith that kept me going and allowed me to stand and not feel stupid about it. It's not going to make sense to everyone, and everyone has to make their own decisions.
Me 33 H 34 S9 S3 M 6 yrs (2gether 11 yrs) EA/PA 1/2006 DB 5/2006 H wants D 6/2006 H wants ME 8/2006 H "said" PA/EA over 8/2006 H erased OW off phone! 2/2007
"It is far better 2 choose humility & change oneself, than 2 wait in vain trying 2 chang someone else."
and I don't doubt that your a good man. for heaven sakes, your on this site trying to make things work. You could have done the exact opposite.
I definitely think you shouldn't just hang out here waiting for her to come back. you definitely need to move on as yourself....-not move on to another R- as I mentioned before, and allow the door to be open.
it was just the comment that you don't owe her anything. almost like she doesn't deserve anything from you. I think you both deserve something from each other... whether you get something or not is another story. Love is about giving even when your not receiving. maybe your comment wasn't meant to sound as harsh.
Me 33 H 34 S9 S3 M 6 yrs (2gether 11 yrs) EA/PA 1/2006 DB 5/2006 H wants D 6/2006 H wants ME 8/2006 H "said" PA/EA over 8/2006 H erased OW off phone! 2/2007
"It is far better 2 choose humility & change oneself, than 2 wait in vain trying 2 chang someone else."
Hey there, ST. In regard to your comments about what Heim owes W, I submit that he owes her respect as the mother of his children and as a person. He doesn't "owe" her sticking around until she comes around. We all reach a point DBing, working on ourselves, when we either feel like we've done all we can or we don't want the R anymore (or both), and then we're open to someone else.
Sounds like you're reaching that point, Heim, at least regarding feeling like you've done what you can. You could have a fantastic life for years and years, without any outside romantic interest in the picture, and still be open to W's return. Or you might decide one day you're open to someone else and test the waters (the date).
The thing is, though, there's no calendar that says, okay, you've waited long enough, time to move on. Everyone is different. And no one can tell you you haven't given it enough time. When you're done, you'll know it. And then you don't "owe" your spouse any more time than that.
It's not ideal, I know. It would be great if every WAS came around, if every LBS were willing and able to wait until that day. Doesn't happen, though.
Hey there, ST. In regard to your comments about what Heim owes W, I submit that he owes her respect as the mother of his children and as a person. He doesn't "owe" her sticking around until she comes around. We all reach a point DBing, working on ourselves, when we either feel like we've done all we can or we don't want the R anymore (or both), and then we're open to someone else.
Sounds like you're reaching that point, Heim, at least regarding feeling like you've done what you can. You could have a fantastic life for years and years, without any outside romantic interest in the picture, and still be open to W's return. Or you might decide one day you're open to someone else and test the waters (the date).
The thing is, though, there's no calendar that says, okay, you've waited long enough, time to move on. Everyone is different. And no one can tell you you haven't given it enough time. When you're done, you'll know it. And then you don't "owe" your spouse any more time than that.
It's not ideal, I know. It would be great if every WAS came around, if every LBS were willing and able to wait until that day. Doesn't happen, though.
