It has been a very long time (over four years) since I posted regularly on the DB site but I find the desire to do so again. My original postings were under a different user name and tended to be a bit harsh on my W. In some ways, they were deserved but it is not a path I want to go down again.
A summation of how I ended up here and where I am now:
I am in my late 40s and this is my first marriage. W is also in her late 40s and this is her third marriage (her first ended after about two years when she said her H did not want to settle down and start a family, her second ended after about five years due in some degree to that H not wanting a family either). I met W over 20 years ago when she was separated from H#2 and I was finishing up my degree. We did have a relationship for a few months which continued after I moved about two hours away and was working at another university. W decided to end our relationship and give marriage #2 her last, best chance to work. That lasted less than a week when she decided that she wanted a future with me. She did divorce H#2 and moved in with me. We got married after living together for nearly four years and have two wonderful children (D who is a teenager and S who is in grade school.)
Naturally with children (especially after our S was born), our R started to decline greatly as we focused more and more on our kids. When my MIL started suffering health problems and W was focusing whatever energies we could on her, I felt quite lonely and rather isolated. I did have a few months spell in 2001 when I got hooked on porn from the web and then W found out about it. Naturally things quickly spiraled downward from there.
She demanded (and rightly so) that the porn had to stop and that I needed to seek counseling which I did in early 2002. During the first few months we were both in counseling with the same therapist who thought he could handle all of our needs (hers, mine and the marriage.) It was during this time that she set down some extremely immovable barriers: She did not want sex with me ever again; she did not want me to touch her ever again; her friends would provide her with all of the intimacy she would need; and if it did not involve the kids, she did not want us to do things together. Regrettably, those barriers still exist today to our detriment.
In 2002 I found the DB site and got copies of DB and DR. The support I found here was extremely good and I improved greatly. My relationship with my kids (which was always strong) continued to prosper even though W continued to pass judgment on me. I sought forgiveness from W and did apologize a number of times to her for the hurt that I had caused but she never said that I was forgiven. I also survived a layoff from my job in 2003 and did not give up on myself even though it felt that W gave up on me a long time ago. W has not even acknowledged our anniversary for the past four years which again saddens me greatly.
(More to follow. I thought it best to break this up to prevent one extremely long post.)
Me 52, STBEX 52 D 17, S 12 M 20 years Em Sep since 2002, Phys Sep Sept 2009
During all this time, neither of us has moved out and we both still share the same bed. After having a couple of contract jobs in the area since my layoff, I ended up with my current employer nearly a year ago. The pay could be a lot better (heck, it needs to be in order to meet all of our budget needs) but the work is challenging (and extremely stressful) but more on that later. W's current full time job is a good one and she been there for nearly three years. She is happy there and thinks it will be here final stop in the job market. Our kids are both in a private K through 12 school since the public schools in our area are grossly underperforming and we are not really in a financial position to move within the area. They are thriving there and we get a substantial discount on their tuition.
Even though my psychological outlook over the past few years has been good (or so I thought), W has been suffering on and off again through an extremely prolonged depression compounded by MIL's deteriorating health and eventual passing over three years ago. W stopped attending sessions with our "all in one" therapist a very long time ago and I stopped going after my insurance from my former employer ran out. Due to the extreme amount of stress that I have been suffering at work (plus the stress from my long dead M), my boss strongly suggested that I seek help. I recently located a new therapist who is much more aggressive in his approach than the "all in one" I went to before. The first couple of sessions have been very productive and I'm looking forward to getting on a regular visit cycle (every two weeks).
I'm sure that more details will come out as you good people prod me with questions and I do my best to dredge my memories. But I want to move on to more recent events (in the next post, of course...)
Me 52, STBEX 52 D 17, S 12 M 20 years Em Sep since 2002, Phys Sep Sept 2009
In the long period since W and I were jointly seeing the "all in one" therapist, we have not had any R talks. Our interactions have been mostly polite but dealing only with the kids, household related items, finances, me listening to W's daily activities and her assorted health problems (real but which I suspect are more psychologically based rather than an assignable organic cause). I have done a heck of a lot of active listening and validation - showing her the way that our communications should be. W has repeatedly shown no interest in my condition, feelings or how my life has been going. When I have tried to steer any conversation in that direction, she loses interest and becomes quite non-communicative. Admittedly, I am not the most open person in the world and have always kept things close to my vest. For a while, W was trying to tell everyone she knew (and tried to sell to me) that I was suffering from Asperger's Syndrome (or high-functioning autism). When I first broached this subject with my new therapist, he was of the opinion that there were a great deal of unresolved issues in W's past and that my communication skills were actually pretty good.
A couple of weeks ago while the kids were home from school, W came into the family room from her usual perch at the computer (where she spends a majority of her free time usually surfing the web) while I was sitting down taking a break while dinner was cooking and she proceeded to begin a R talk - the first in several years. She prefaced her comments by saying that her feelings could be tinged by the beginnings of menopause or her prolonged depression but she brought up the idea of ending our marriage - that it had been dead for a long time, that she wanted to start anew and wanted to know my view of things. I told her that I had no interest in a divorce from her, that it would be catastrophic from a financial standpoint and it would be psychologically devastating for our children - but that I was powerless to stop her if that was the route she had chosen for us.
She was a bit put off by my comments and her body language showed it but did not get angry. She asked me what I would recommend us doing. I said that since we were not well served by the "all in one" therapist from the past, we should seek out a therapist who would be an advocate for our marriage and not for either of us. She got defensive and said that she never went to the "all in one" for her needs. I did not say it but I suspected she was not telling the truth - a take that my current therapist supported and he even said that I should have called her on that right away rather than giving her a free pass.
W brought up the subject of her depressed feelings. I suggested that she should see a separate therapist she went to over three years ago. Our family doctor steered W to this person to see if there was a psychological connection to some occasional tremors (or twitching) W has had for a number of years. W shot down that idea. I even suggested that the therapist our D had been seeing for other issues would likely have some good recommendations - but W dismissed that route as well.
We continued talking for a few minutes about how she wanted me to find a place of my own - preferably close by so that the kids could be close to both of us and we could switch cars should one of them break down. I said nothing but thought: "You want to end our marriage and subject us to this divorce but I am the one who is supposed to leave? No chance of that happening."
(Time for another break...)
Me 52, STBEX 52 D 17, S 12 M 20 years Em Sep since 2002, Phys Sep Sept 2009
I have "guarding my heart" very well during this time and have not sought out another relationship. The porn stopped in January of 2002 and has not resurfaced. I suspect that W has not been involved in an EA or PA during all of this - but I have not snooped so I don’t know for certain. A couple of W's closest friends are divorced and W has helped them through their dating ordeals - reviewing their profiles on a couple of dating web sites and evaluating their matches. So she certainly knows how to navigate that route - even if she has not taken it herself as of yet.
Division of labor around the house: W does what W wants to do - nothing more, nothing less. Due to our work schedules, W has gotten the kids off to day care / school before heading into work. I would pick them up, take care of their needs and work up dinner. Most evenings after work W is at the computer cruising the web (our computers are networked and in the living room where W and I can see what the kids are doing) until she gets them upstairs for bed. Since I am the early riser, I get to bed before W and kids but I usually get less than six hours of sleep every night. W takes care of the finances (one of the few things that interest her and keeps her engaged so I let her even though I could handle it) and all of our accounts are joint.
For the longest time, my family (both parents are alive and well after 50 years of marriage and I have three sisters - two married and one divorced) has been out of the loop on all that has gone on - a result of me wanting to not degrade their view of W. Recently I did let my parents know everything that has gone on and my hand in all of this. They knew something was up since the last time we (kids, W and I) visited over three years ago. My mom said that W was treating me like dirt at that time and that regardless of the reason, there was no excuse for it - that W was severely in their doghouse. Mom asked me point blank if I had any intention of abandoning the kids and I replied that there was no way that would happen. I also let Mom and Dad know to share everything I said with my sisters - which led to a wonderful convo with my younger sister a couple of days after I talked with Mom and Dad. My sister has been married for over 25 years and let me know she and her H were fully in my corner.
On W's side - her parents divorced when she was a teenager and probably would have a lot sooner except for W. MIL moved away and FIL remarried within a year to a woman who was a family friend. FIL and his W are still alive and living in the house where W grew up. W has an older brother and sister who each have been through at least two marriages - both are still married for over 20 years to their latest spouses. Although my parents' marriage has had its sizeable ups and downs, they found a way to stay together and let their love prosper.
As I mentioned above, my job is extremely stressful and I am not sure how long I will continue there. I am very happy at the progress I am making with my therapist and my relationships with the children are thriving. I do have some outside interests so it has been easy for me to keep a relatively positive outlook on life despite the state of my marriage. In my opinion - regardless of whether W pulls the trigger or I do, it would still be W's divorce and is the wrong course. However, I am waging an internal battle on whether the divorce has become a necessity.
I do know that no matter how well I "guard my heart," I am extremely vulnerable and it would not take too much in the way of attention and affection from a woman to cause me to stray. I have chosen - and continue to choose - to love my W regardless of her actions towards me and our marriage. In our last session, my therapist said that I should not be afraid to "upset the apple cart." This can take on different dimensions - such as being more vocal in expressing my feelings at W's actions that seek to exclude me - which she has done with alarming frequency over the years.
I don't want to leave the wrong impression that W is a bad person. She works very hard with raising our kids and loves them greatly - and we did have a wonderful marriage for a number of years (a great deal of words of affection and quality time on both of our parts - but the frequency of ML only a few times of year and something that W controlled despite my desire for greater frequency - something which W knew in no uncertain terms. But I can't reconcile how she can love them so much and be willing to go down a path which will hurt them so deeply. And I don't even know if I am really Piecing any more. Perhaps that is why I decided to post again. I know that I am at a crossroads - I just wish I knew which path is the right one to take...
Me 52, STBEX 52 D 17, S 12 M 20 years Em Sep since 2002, Phys Sep Sept 2009
Well, my first thought was "I can't imagine how you have lived like that for all these years." I sincerely praise you for living in a what seems like "loveless M" for all these years for your children. I understand not wanting to D, however, I would say that you need to up the DB'ing in hopes that you can rekindle your M. I cannot imagine living like you are for the rest of your life. I guess the best thing right now would be to start DB'ing and see what transpires with W and her all of a sudden talking D. See if she continues to bring it up or where she is going to go w/ your M.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
The other thing that came to mind is that, I understand you staying for the children, however, keep in mind that children see, hear and pick up on a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for. They are also learning from you what a marriage should be like and should look like.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
I've seen some of your sitch since I have been lurking for a while. I can't imagine having a spouse in harm's way over in Iraq with children at home - hope that he remains safe and that the progress the two of you have made so far continues...
Happen to be at work this morning - so thought I would check in...
Quote:
keep in mind that children see, hear and pick up on a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for.
That is very true. Both of our kids have mentioned that they are saddened whenever W decides to have some fun time with them and I am intentionally excluded. I make sure to tell both of them that I understand and share their feelings on this. Seeing W's body language whenever they bring this up makes me suspect that it is getting to her.
Admittedly, I haven't been doing much in the way of DBing for some time now - been focusing on maintaining my physical and emotional health as well as job stability. The good thing is that my employer has gotten a large multiyear contract which will keep things humming. Wish that the pay was better - so I still keep an eye open for something better.
Me 52, STBEX 52 D 17, S 12 M 20 years Em Sep since 2002, Phys Sep Sept 2009
Bump - work has been much too hectic to post while I am here and haven't set aside the time over the weekend to use my work laptop while W is not in the house. Plus it's Oktoberfest season - which is a big time drain for the next couple of weekends...
Me 52, STBEX 52 D 17, S 12 M 20 years Em Sep since 2002, Phys Sep Sept 2009
Daybreak, Dealing with a spouse's depression is tough. My W has come out of hers to some extent, but I think it's going to take a change in jobs, and quitting smoking before she bumps up another level.
Is there no opportunity for platonic connection? Is the M as barren as you describe? If it is, all you can do is GAL, and wait for the situation to improve.
Do you sleep in separate beds? I would sleep in the guest room, when my W was sleeping elsewhere on a regular basis. It helped me to keep an emotional distance from the situation, while I got my feet on the ground.
CL
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
Surprisingly, W and I have been sleeping in the same bed all of this time - but our night time routine skews this somewhat. Until about 3 years ago (when W and D would be in D's room reading together until they fell asleep), S and I would do the same in his room. When D started wanting to go to bed on her own, W took over reading to S.
I am a early riser (4 AM on work days and the dogs get me up between 6 and 7 on the weekends) so we try to get to bed around 10 PM. W falls asleep with S and usually doesn't come over to our bed until 1 or 2 AM. So we are in bed together for a short time - but by then I am already sound asleep.
Anyway - time to get home to the kids.
Me 52, STBEX 52 D 17, S 12 M 20 years Em Sep since 2002, Phys Sep Sept 2009
