Every now and then I stop by to read the boards. There really is a lot of great advice/information here.
Chrome - I just wanted to say you deserve an "E" for effort in my book and I think you (and a few people doling out advice to you here) are much to critical of your wants/needs/desires and actions. It also seems to me that sometimes self-analysis can just go too far.
My C said ...He did try to get me to express my rage to him, but I couldn't. He said I needed a safe place to express it, but I just couldn't let myself lose control, even a little bit. I did mention a few things to him about my anger, and he said a lot of that seems to stem from the feeling that I have that my W doesn't "see me."
I missed this! So you did get to your C. What did he think of your anger? I did look up a few books on Anger and Rage by Ronald Potter-Efron that looked interesting. He went to U of Michigan for his MSW but other than that I couldn't find anything negative about him
The statement about some anger coming from the feeling that you W does not "see you" is interesting. Did that resonate with you? Did you and your C talk about why it is so upsetting to have your wife not "see" you? Or have you thought about it since? Just a thought what if you did not personalize her not seeing you? What if her not "seeing" you is NOT a reflection of how she feels about you OR how worthy you are? What if her not "seeing" you is just a reflection of her own personal issues? Does that make any difference or not as far as feeling angry? Really think about it because I would think your next action would be based on this answer.
Good Luck with DOing!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Gotta run but thought I would at least put this out there for now.
The idea of anger coming from my W not "seeing" me resonates very strongly with me. And the anger has been really strong over the last couple of weeks, to the point that I feel paralyzed by it. I am having a hard time "dropping it" or pulling back from it to analyze it. It really is affecting our R in a very negative way, because I have stopped doing positive interaction type things because my anger gets me into a major funk whenever I start. For example I often have the thought, "who does she think she is ignoring me and treating me like dirt, avoiding affection and even listening to what I have to say about even mundane topics? why should I even try to be nice to her when she is being so dismissive of me?" Not saying that position is defensible or logical, but that is the sort of thing that has kept me withdrawn for a while now.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
For example I often have the thought, "who does she think she is ignoring me and treating me like dirt, avoiding affection and even listening to what I have to say about even mundane topics? why should I even try to be nice to her when she is being so dismissive of me?"
Not saying that position is defensible or logical, but that is the sort of thing that has kept me withdrawn for a while now.
Hmmm. My only suggestion would be that rather than JUDGING those feelings immediately, you might try looking into them even more. Judging your thoughts/feelings without understanding why you feel that way or where those thoughts are coming from short circuits your ability to get to the root problem.
How would your wife respond if you did say to her "I feel like you ignore me and treat me like dirt?"
I'm not saying you HAVE to ask her but asking what you think her response would be. Have you ever told her something directly? I think I remember you using phrases like "How do you think I feel when you a,b, or c.?" but that is a passive way of talking with her. Just asking and brainstorming!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Chrome, this resonated with me too, from the other side. My husband comes from a quite dysfunctional family; his mother was mentally ill (untreated) and his father enabled that and focused all his emotional resources on her to the detriment of the children (especially S., because his mom got even worse after he was born). Not much outright abuse, but LOTS of neglect.
His absolute number one hot button since early in our marriage has been "not being heard". Which I am assuming is closely related to your "not being seen". We had lots of problems because he at times equated me disagreeing with him or refusing to validate his point of view with me "not hearing" him. I have no doubts that there were faults on both sides there ... I didn't understand the depth and complexity of his FOO stuff (and neither did he) .... I was trying to defend my own emotional and/or intellectual ground and I'm sure I was less than tactful on many occasions, in addition to being overly rigid about the "right" point of view. I also have been historically unwilling to render an apology when I didn't think I was wrong; it felt false. We've worked through the vast majority of this over the years. I've learned to acknowlege his POV in a more respectful way; he's learned that I am not dismissing or invalidating him as a person when I disagree or don't want to discuss a matter every time he does. Just recently, he realized that we had been having a lot of arguments where what he *really* wanted was recognition of an emotion of his (hurt, angry, etc) but he didn't approach it that way; he'd just keep pounding away at the logic of the situation and when my logic didn't work the same way, he felt like I was invalidating his *feelings* and would just get angrier. I was clueless about this too. He finally figured out the dynamic on his own, and now when he wants to express that he's angry or whatever, he just says, "I'm angry/hurt/irritated because of thus-and-so" and I can acknowlege and deal with that without having it devolve into a logic/worldview war.
ANYWAY that was sort of a tangent, but what I wanted to acknowlege was that this (not being seen/heard) does seem to cut *really* deep, almost primal. And also .... it's POSSIBLE that your wife really has no idea that the way she interacts with you is triggering these emotions of feeling unseen.
Of course, you know her best, but consider the possibility.
Perhaps you can find a way to express this to her in a way she can wrap her head around (I know it took me awhile) ... and then perhaps you can work together to figure out ways to communicate/interact that will disarm your gut reaction.
Hang in there ....
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I do realize that communication is a big problem for us. I avoid saying how I truly feel because I'm afraid of her reaction and she has a massive wall of defensiveness built up around her as a result of her FOO. As an example, a convo we had some time ago ...
Me: let's go to X together for a mini-vacation Her: No, I have too much to do Me: We need to make time for each other and for the M, having fun together is essential IMO Her: I can't have fun when there are things to do, besides your idea of fun and mine are different Me (getting irritated, another one of my flaws): Yeah, my idea of fun has to do with US and your idea of fun has to do with YOU
Which led into a discussion of how I feel she is selfish wrt to me (obviously she is not intrinsically selfish as she has 3 kids). Again, I am slightly irritated at this point.
Me: Consider this, for you I have taken a job that is near your parents, bought a house that is near your parents, agreed to spend a lot of money to get LASIK surgery, spent most of the rest on improvements for our home (many of which are things YOU wanted to do), bought you a surprise trip to go see your favorite chef do a live cooking show. I have done things for you, not to obligate you to me, but because I love you and want to help you be happy with your life. What I don't understand is why you can't show me the same consideration? Her (getting close to tears): Well, there is nothing I can do about the job, surgery and house, but we can cancel the trip to see the chef if you want.
I'm sure those convos could be dissected meticulously to show all the errors I made and if someone wants to do so, feel free. I am aware of several (claiming no obligation while acting entitled, etc.) But you can see with the last convo how she completely misinterpreted what I was getting at. I was trying to say that IMO a big part of marriage is doing things for each other and she heard that I was resentful of doing things for her. Unfortunately her misinterpretations usually throw me off and I end up a loss for words and how to proceed in that moment, so the convos are usually unproductive. In the above convo, my mind started dwelling on the possibility that she would prefer that we do NOTHING for each other and just be roomates raising kids. That is why I bemoan my inability to be unflappable in convos. I think if I could truly get there, we could work through her misinterpretations and my misstatements.
Right now, I am just feeling incapable of making myself heard, because of worry that not only will I say things in a way that can be misinterpreted, but that she will misinterpret in ways that set us back rather than move us forward. Combine that with the angry (i.e. already emotional) state I am in, and convos just don't seem to be a good idea. So I am stuck.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
How would your wife respond if you did say to her "I feel like you ignore me and treat me like dirt?"
She would either say "I don't, I love you" or "I feel like you ignore me" or just remain quiet. That's my guess of course, and I have been very wrong in the past.
I do see how some of my statements in the past have been more passive voice.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Chrome, when NOP and I were hammering out issues, we used email. Many of our conversations were about as fruitful (as in didn't reach an resolution) as your example. The topics might have been different, but the emotional buttons were alike.
The marvelous thing about email (if it is something you can utilize) is that it removes your fear of saying the "wrong" thing or responding in anger or the convo screeching to a halt because you're speechless at her interpretation. It allows you to say what you're trying to say without fear of an emotional outburst or verbal freezing from yourself and it allows you to hear what she has to say without getting all twisted up because your wife is crying. It gives you *time* to think and frees you from having to think on your feet during an emotional conversation.
Maybe it would help to start with more of a meta-discussion (as opposed to specific, real-life situations? Do I recall correctly that you and your wife have read His Needs Her Needs or that Love Languages book? If so, what was her opinion of spouses having different interests and needs?
