Chrome is back

[chromosphere]

... and keeping an eye on Glob, without beating him down.

Thanks for the words all of you, and to Corri for having such useful discussions. Bits and pieces have filtered through.


"Escape" by Enrique Iglesias
You and me
Up and down
But maybe this time
We'll get it right
Worth the fight
cause love isn’t something you can shake
When it breaks all it takes is some trying

Chrome

[blackfoot]

The problem is that in a very short time, the boundary is tested again as if there was no understanding from before.

yes your W is quite feminine isnt she. Stop seeing it as a problem. That is your choice. Boundaries being tested is not a problem. Its an opportunity.
The more consistant and stronger your boundary, the less frequent the testing will be. you let it slip and its going to get pushed back as far as it can.

seriously why would she understand it, if you arent serious about the boundary and consequences?
A consequence does not always have to contain actions. People trying to implement boundaries, are always looking at the 'OR WHAT? consequence, before they even try just stating them. Your W does not require that level of 'OR WHAT' action consequence, boundary.

Words said in the moment, with the serious intent shown, and honest feeling, are oftentimes plenty. I dont know why its enough, but I appreciate it. Just because it takes more then words to get thru your thick skull, (mine too) doesnt mean she is the same


That's when I get pissed and I usually withdraw because I'm afraid of my anger.


your trying to suppress yourself and hide the real you (ooohhh scaryyyy *shiver* ) , instead of authentically having your feelings.
so use courage to face the fear of losing control of your anger. feel your anger, use courage to overcome your fear, by remaining where you are and NOT withdrawing.
Show your displeasure. Do not loose your anger upon your W. Do not withdraw. The more you handle your anger the less fear you will have of losing it.

Its your emotions. feel it and control it, and determine what needs to occur to prevent your anger from occuring again. The boundary. Enact the boundary. If the boundary is breached, you are going to feel anger again.

Its there for a reason.

[chromosphere]

I hear yah black. Keeps coming back to those boundaries. Tell you what, I'll set up a boundary testing situation that happened two nights ago and you can walk me through how I should react.

Boundary: I will not live in a sexless/affectionless marriage.

Test: after being rather avoidant all day, for one reason after another (all of which are valid individually, but can be a little frustrating when taken in concert), the kids are finally in bed, the chores are done, and we are settling down for a quiet evening. She is on the computer

Me: Hey pretty lady, come on over here with me on the couch and let's cuddle for awhile.
Her: I don't want to, we always fall asleep when we cuddle on the couch and then I can't go to sleep later.
Me: I'll bet I can get you tired enough to go to sleep later.
Her: (exasperated sigh and shake of head, turns back to computer)
Me: (moves over to the easy chair), there, come on over, my lap is getting anxious waiting for you (I know, not the best lines in the world, but what the hey)
Her: It doesn't matter, I'd still fall asleep.

At this point my whatever reaction takes over and I go to the other room to work on my lectures for the week. She remains on the computer for 3 hours before finally getting in the shower and then goes to bed whining about how late it is and how tired she'll be tomorrow.

So ... what? Gave up too quickly? Should have called her on it? Got a little miffed and said so? Hopped in the shower with her? Tried to initiate sex anyway? I guess my trouble is I'm just not sure which way to go so I end up doing nothing.

Lack of confidence ... blech! I need a little "Mystery" on my shoulder. (wink wink nudge nudge)

Chrome

[Martelo]

Hey chrome I'm not BlackFoot but let me see if I can help in anyway.
I do have a couple of questions.

Did you want to cuddle or were you trying to cuddle your way into her pants?

If by "mystery" you mean a guy with game & in the guy with the stupid hat I think
you should really look at the Seduction stuff that is out there and ask you self if you
want to put on an act and be loved for that or do you want to be free to reveal yourself and be loved for that. There is some good information out there but allot of it is just a joke.

For the purpose of brevity I'll just assume that you wanted both really. As a nice guy
you may have to go out of your way to ask for exactly what you want directly and uncensored. Not because your going to get the outcome you want but to present and reveal yourself.

In the situation you've posted seems to me you're talking about two things cuddling a need for affection with non sexual intimacy and sex. If your really wanting sex in the scenario you never actually were rejected for it if she's just turning down your invitations for a "cuddle".

Do you think your wife may have stayed up late to avoid the "cuddle" that you were waiting for? Could you see her doing this if the invitation to "cuddle" was loaded.

Anyway I've made a big assumption here and could be totally wrong so I'll stop writing.

[blackfoot]

Boundary: I will not live in a sexless/affectionless marriage.


But you did.
So why are you saying that? Untill your ready to back it up, it looks like posturing.

So what is the W's role in this ongoing wooing game? Keeping herself good looking and being fun to be around and interested in the man? Strutting her stuff on occasion to catch the man's eye? Or is the man supposed to just keep wooing no matter what, or the woman finds someone else?

why are you asking hap about what you want to receive. Thats for you to decide.

I love chasing, I love catching. I believe you on the former, and would ask how the latter is working out for you, but youve allready said

I hate never catching and being told it is all my fault because I'm not chasing hard enough, or I'm chasing too hard, or I said something the wrong way two days ago, or I'm acting too childlike, or ...
You dont chase someone to surrender. apparently your asking your W what you want to receive also. If you dont know, how is she going too?

I guess my trouble is I'm just not sure which way to go so I end up doing nothing. Yep thats a problem. Your also still trying to use tactics instead of defining what you require. I guess fearless was right about mean using these tactics. Fortunately your wife and women in general are not stupid.

I need a little "Mystery" on my shoulder. (wink wink nudge nudge)
You should call him and tell him then. I find this insulting. wink wink nudge nudge what? I know these guys... not know of... know... and yet Ive never mentioned it, nor ever initiated any conversation about them, nor the fact Ive blown out or 'AMOGed' one of his associates, in front of a 'class' in Hawaii, during a random encounter, just because I detest his gynephobic, misogynistic former associate.
Dont ever group me in with those entertaining monkeys again, or Ill let you pay them for their opinions.

Im not at your beck and call, and Im not an actor who rehearses lines, and Ive never recommended seduction guru's as role models. I dont use false rapport because I detest liars and cheaters, and have real boundaries and know who I am and what I want.

ask you self if you want to put on an act and be loved for that or do you want to be free to reveal yourself and be loved for that.
Well said Martelo.
Standing naked in the face of fear. Thats a real man and something Im still working on.

Me: Hey pretty lady, come on over here with me on the couch and let's cuddle for awhile. Supplicating.
Her: I don't want to, we always fall asleep when we cuddle on the couch and then I can't go to sleep later.
Me: I'll bet I can get you tired enough to go to sleep later. You have an agenda, and your not listening to what she said.
Her: (exasperated sigh and shake of head, turns back to computer)
Me: (moves over to the easy chair), there, come on over, my lap is getting anxious waiting for you (I know, not the best lines in the world, but what the hey) Why are you using lines on your W? Still supplicating, pressing your agenda and not interested in what she she was trying to tell you.


Thats not a boundary. Thats chasing. Would you prefer if she were attracted to seduction artists? I sure wouldnt. I prefer someone with a little more discernment.
you should read my post to AC. When I give ex. Im not providing lines, Im trying to offer the guy a little emotional jog to see if that is how he feels about the sitch. Men are forced to suppress their emotions so much they have a hard time identifying them. Suppress does not = in control of. The last time you suppressed you emotions it exploded into 2 affairs. I would think you would be done with that.

Let me know when you are done trying to make me perform for you.

[chromosphere]

Blackfoot (and Martelo)

That Mystery comment was just a joke. I'm sorry if I offended you blackfoot. Wasn't my intention. Perhaps my poor sense of humor is part of what gets me in trouble with my W.

I said: Boundary: I will not live in a sexless/affectionless marriage.

Blackfoot replied:
But you did.
So why are you saying that? Untill your ready to back it up, it looks like posturing.

That is the core of my problem eh? One thing that is clear to me is that I don't know how to enforce boundaries, which of course makes them not really boundaries if they're not enforced, which means I don't really have boundaries, which ... this is the point where my head starts to spin.

I said: So what is the W's role in this ongoing wooing game? Keeping herself good looking and being fun to be around and interested in the man? Strutting her stuff on occasion to catch the man's eye? Or is the man supposed to just keep wooing no matter what, or the woman finds someone else?

blackfoot replied why are you asking hap about what you want to receive. Thats for you to decide.

I really don't understand what you mean here. Apologies for being so thick-headed.

I said: I hate never catching and being told it is all my fault because I'm not chasing hard enough, or I'm chasing too hard, or I said something the wrong way two days ago, or I'm acting too childlike, or ...

blackfoot replied: You dont chase someone to surrender. apparently your asking your W what you want to receive also. If you dont know, how is she going too?

I also am spinning a bit on this one.

I said: I guess my trouble is I'm just not sure which way to go so I end up doing nothing.

Blackfoot replied: Yep thats a problem. Your also still trying to use tactics instead of defining what you require. I guess fearless was right about mean using these tactics. Fortunately your wife and women in general are not stupid.

Wow. I'm a bit hurt by this, but I guess the truth hurts. In my mind I'm trying to think of what I want from my M and doing what I thought was needed to get there. It would not surprise me if I'm going about it the wrong way. So is what you are saying is that I should just clearly state what I want and the let the chips fall as they may? I guess I was just trying in my own sad way to be playful and it is backfiring on me.

blackfoot: I need a little "Mystery" on my shoulder. (wink wink nudge nudge)

I said: You should call him and tell him then. I find this insulting. wink wink nudge nudge what? I know these guys... not know of... know... and yet Ive never mentioned it, nor ever initiated any conversation about them, nor the fact Ive blown out or 'AMOGed' one of his associates, in front of a 'class' in Hawaii, during a random encounter, just because I detest his gynephobic, misogynistic former associate.
Dont ever group me in with those entertaining monkeys again, or Ill let you pay them for their opinions.

Again, a joke. I was just trying to poke fun, get a rise, like I do with some of my other male friends, tease and all. I made a poor assumption and I do sincerely apologize for it. Won't happen again.

BELIEVE me that I don't lump you in with those guys. The only connection in my mind was the word "attraction." I too found the show rather silly, part of the same tired-out (but not yet played out apparently) reality show circuit.

Again, just was just trying to joke around, sorry if it came across the wrong way. Sorry if my humor is in poor taste.

Im not at your beck and call, and Im not an actor who rehearses lines, and Ive never recommended seduction guru's as role models. I dont use false rapport because I detest liars and cheaters, and have real boundaries and know who I am and what I want.

Understood ... except for the having real boundaries part in my case

Me: Hey pretty lady, come on over here with me on the couch and let's cuddle for awhile. Supplicating.
Her: I don't want to, we always fall asleep when we cuddle on the couch and then I can't go to sleep later.
Me: I'll bet I can get you tired enough to go to sleep later. You have an agenda, and your not listening to what she said.
Her: (exasperated sigh and shake of head, turns back to computer)
Me: (moves over to the easy chair), there, come on over, my lap is getting anxious waiting for you (I know, not the best lines in the world, but what the hey) Why are you using lines on your W? Still supplicating, pressing your agenda and not interested in what she she was trying to tell you.

OK, I feel stupid, and not in a P/A "I'm trying to make you guilty for making me feel stupid." I just generally do feel stupid. Believe it or not, I didn't originally have as an agenda to have sex, I just wanted to cuddle. I can see how I came across that way by morphing what I said. I feel stupid in that in that I do get wrapped all around myself trying to come up with the "right thing to say" when I guess I should just say what is on my heart. The problem is that what was on my heart was that I was hurt by her rejection (even if it wasn't a rejection in ya'lls minds). I was thinking in my mind "be confident and just "blow through" that feeling of rejection. Stupid. So should I have pursued the "falling asleep" statement to find the source of the issue. I guess that makes more sense than what I did.

Thats not a boundary. Thats chasing. Would you prefer if she were attracted to seduction artists? I sure wouldnt. I prefer someone with a little more discernment.

I agree. Contrary to how it may seem to you (and perhaps other), I do really love my W and plan to stick this out. I sometimes let anger (at the situation, caused by me) or fear or sadness drive me. I haven't found that "equanimity" that oldtimer mentions.

you should read my post to AC. When I give ex. Im not providing lines, Im trying to offer the guy a little emotional jog to see if that is how he feels about the sitch. Men are forced to suppress their emotions so much they have a hard time identifying them.

I never did think of them as lines like a pickup artist, my word choice earlier was (along with everything else) in poor taste. I was just trying to be playful and missed badly. Apologies for misinterpretation. I do see how your helping me decide what to think/say is based on trying to capture a feeling. I'm just not there in terms of putting it into action. I hope that I can be.

Suppress does not = in control of. The last time you suppressed you emotions it exploded into 2 affairs. I would think you would be done with that.

I am, and I don't want to supress myself. I'm just afraid of myself, making too many mistakes, not feeling the way I'm supposed to, failing so much and so often. And that fear is a vicious loop I'm having a hard time getting out of, even in two years.

Let me know when you are done trying to make me perform for you.

Done. Never was my intention to do so, so really done.

And again, I truly am sorry about all that. And I'm sorry about polluting the board with my stupidity. I wish I could say that I was just trying to provide a helpful example of what not to do.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Martelo,

Did you want to cuddle or were you trying to cuddle your way into her pants?

At first I really was trying to just cuddle. Frankly I wasn't really in the mood for sex, haven't been in awhile. I'm afraid that perhaps the pills I'm taking are doing a number of me. Really afraid. So my second comment was (I'm thinking now, correct me if I'm wrong) a stupid segue caused by a supressed feeling of being hurt by "rejection" and a supressed feeling of fear that I'm losing my sexual desire. I can see how I torpedoed myself with the second comment, everything beyond that was just useless.

If by "mystery" you mean a guy with game & in the guy with the stupid hat I think
you should really look at the Seduction stuff that is out there and ask you self if you
want to put on an act and be loved for that or do you want to be free to reveal yourself and be loved for that. There is some good information out there but allot of it is just a joke.

I agree, it was just a stupid attempt by me (I'm as bad at it with blackfoot as I am with my W) to be funny. Blackfoot and that guy Mystery do have the similarity that they radiate a lot of confidence. But the similarity ends there. Actually my W and I caught part of the show and we both agreed that the "lessons" he is teaching those guys are only going to give them a temporary good feeling, that will explode on them when (if ever) they get into an LTR.

For the purpose of brevity I'll just assume that you wanted both really. As a nice guy
you may have to go out of your way to ask for exactly what you want directly and uncensored. Not because your going to get the outcome you want but to present and reveal yourself.

I do want both (well, beyond the hopefully temporary supression I am feeling). I have been forthright with my W about what I want, but I can see how I then go out and torpedo myself with interactions like the one I presented.

In the situation you've posted seems to me you're talking about two things cuddling a need for affection with non sexual intimacy and sex. If your really wanting sex in the scenario you never actually were rejected for it if she's just turning down your invitations for a "cuddle".

I can see how my comments led her to believe that. Stupid.

Do you think your wife may have stayed up late to avoid the "cuddle" that you were waiting for? Could you see her doing this if the invitation to "cuddle" was loaded.

I can see how she could have acted that way. Granted, the staying up late on the computer wasn't an isolated incident. Now that I think about it, the very act of her sitting down at the computer created an anger in me that colored the whole incident. I was doomed to fail before I ever began because wasn't aware of myself. Stupid.

Anyway I've made a big assumption here and could be totally wrong so I'll stop writing.

Thanks for your comments Martelo

Chrome

[LustForLife]

I am about to throw this monitor across the room and scream, so I am just going to write this down and get this off my chest.

STOP STOP STOP apologizing Chrome!
Did you notice how many times you said sorry and stupid in the past few posts?
THAT is your biggest problem, and you walked right into it AGAIN with BF. WTF!?
Stand up for yourself more! I know I'm probably the last person you will or should listen to on advice BUT given our history I think it may be at least somewhat helpful to here it from me. You would drive me batty with all the apologizing you do. STOP! Your W is sure to feel the same. Any person would.

LFL

[blackfoot]

Now that I think about it, the very act of her sitting down at the computer created an anger in me that colored the whole incident.

Bingo.

Thats a good start.

[blackfoot]

Your not thick headed. you just get befuddled when you feel emotion. Right? You felt angry about your W sitting down at the computer (swinging at your head even though it wasnt about you) and tapped her on the shoulder and called her silly for it.
When really you were angry.



So.. Im not mad at you. Take a deep breath go walk around, feel whatever you feel, and come back read your reply to me and retry to answer the questions.