I've been married 11 years; together 17. No kids. I have been out of the house for three months. I've got plenty of problems I'm working on, and WAW knows a bit about this. But she only knows the tip of the iceberg as she doesn't want to talk about the deep stuff now. I have avoided doing most of the mistakes that sets this process back. I have my problems, but I'm more convinced than ever that MLC is also a big issue here. I've read a lot of the MLC threads, and they are revealing!
Here's what I struggle with. My wife feels I didn't love her enough. She said she thought I'd simply walk away when she asked for the separation. She knows I haven't done that. I agree with a good part of her analysis of my problems (though there are many other layers of problems here). So, part of me feels that to get a new marriage with her (I agree the old one is dead; and in many ways good riddance!) I need to show her at least some affection. From time to time I've left a few small tokens of love--a flower, a bottle of wine, etc. No notes, no R talk, just a token of love.
On the other hand, I read over and over that perhaps total detachment is the way to go, that these MLC have to work themselves through the crisis. She herself said when we separated that she needed to figure out if she could trust me with her future. At this point, I don't believe she feels she has any real work to do on owning some of her issues in the relationship. I feel she simply sees herself as a victim. She is, but there's so much more to it than that. At least I feel there is; she needs to own some things as well, but she doesn't seem ready for that. She briefly told me on the phone a few weeks ago that she thought I needed to work on myself, and she needed to work on her self-esteem to figure out why she put up with my faults for so long! Good questions that need to be explored by each of us, but if she feels that's all that needs to happen I'm not going back to her. I need her to own some things.
As we all know, her perception is her reality. Given that is what I think her paradigm is right now, should I continue to drop off small tokens of love? I fear that if I stopped all such activity (I do it every couple of weeks now), it would only confirm the side of her that believes I don't love her enough, or that I'm giving up on us and thus justify to herself the decision to separate. Another side of me wonders if my actions are nothing more than attempts to soothe myself. She has thanked me occasionally for them, or kept the flowers in the vase for several days (I go by the house periodically to pay bills, mow the lawn, etc.).
She's never talked about divorce, and as far as I know has not moved in any way in that direction. I don't have any evidence of OM. She sounds like she's trying to find herself, and these issues are partly related to me but go much deeper. She's in therapy (as am I), and she's been in therapy for years. Given how little contact we have on the deep stuff (we email about caring for our dogs; shuttle them back and forth but she makes sure to be gone when I pick them up or drop them off), I'm just not sure what the best approach here.
Thanks to all for any insights/experiences you might share. This is a wonderful community that means a great deal to me as I wrestle with this hell.
To be labeling your W's problem as MLC seems a bit premature to me. Actually, I think many show some signs of it when you read the "Are you in MLC" articles. Rather it seems to me that your W left a R which was not as loving as it should be. You even say this. Also, you say you have things to work on. You really can't have a new marriage until these things are resolved.
My advise to you (and it is free, so keep that in mind) is to become the best person you can be. You have plenty of problem, so go to work. But I will caution you, you can't change overnight. Also, it is difficult to change much more than one thing at a time. I went to a counselor and ask how long it takes to change. His answer was that I was a certain way for a long time (45 years) and it will take a quite a while time to change. Actually I found that it was tough because you give up part of yourself to find what will work with the new person. Then you realize, wait, I always liked that about me. But you have to change for you, not her.
In regards to total detachment, I am not sure. If you have things to take care of with her, do so. You mentioned the lawn, etc. As for the token, since she seems to receive them well, keep it up.
As for the deep stuff, it sure seems that this was (and continues to be) a big impediment to marriage. At some point, I would think you have to open up. I don't remember where I heard this, perhaps a movie, but a man was asked about loving his wife. He said something to the effect of I know the worst thing about her and it is ok. Perhaps this is what you need to get to eventually.
Thanks for your thoughts. You are right; the R wasn't nearly as loving as it should have been. I take a lot of responsibility for that, and am working on a lot of things in therapy and through reading, journaling, talking with friends, these boards, etc. It's long road indeed, and the more I get into this the further away any reconciliation, if it happens at all, seems to be. I'm well aware that my marriage may be over. I'm the typical "clueless" male who may be "waking up" too late. At least I'm waking up, and I do feel good about that even if I end up with a D.
There are signs of MLC in my wife that go back at least several months before the separation. She got a Mini-Cooper car (and had to have it immediately), started listening to new music, new make up, intense exercise, diet and a lot of weight loss, new clothes. She has long battled self-esteem and anxiety issues that go way back to childhood, and has had overinvolved parents. Whereas she used to let their comments get her down, for a while now she's been getting stronger in terms of making her own decisions. When we separated one thing she told me was that she needed some time to figure out if she could trust me with her future, that she didn't have much longer to "get it right." She has long had a deep fear of death--she read the endings of the last two Harry Potter books first to make sure Harry didn't die. She couldn't read, I just learned, The Five People You Meet in Heaven when her book club chose that work to read. I feel I contributed to the MLC in lots of ways I don't have space to go into here, so I'm not chalking our problems up to her or her parents, etc. My failures reinforced/exacerbated some of her childhood wounds. I am breaking free of my "autopilot" mode and owning a lot of my failures for the first time in my life. I don't have any evidence of OM, and I don't think there's one, but who knows?
We had a good marriage in many respects; she would often say so. I was a big zero, though, in romance and affection. I did a 180 on that front for her birthday and our anniversary (both of which came since the separation). I didn't do anything too heavy, but what I did was way out of character. It felt good for me to do that just for me, and she appreciated the gifts.
I took her for granted for too long. On the one hand, I was too comfortable (which goes back to my search for stability after an unstable childhood) in the relationship, but I also carried around for at least the last three years an anger and resentment over a move we made. The move was basically for her; I left a job and place that I was happy but where she was miserable. Long story short, my new job triggered a lot of old fears and anxieties, and I feel I harbored a deep anger toward her inside, an anger I never let out until now (I've not let it out with her given the lack of contact on the deep stuff; but my therapist is great!). The job is not the main cause of the troubles (childhood patterns in each of us, I believe, are the root of this), but it exacerbated some harmful tendencies, especially in me.
Thanks for listening. Feels good just to type this out. Make it a good day!
It is good to hear you are taking actions in regards to your issues.
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It's long road indeed, and the more I get into this the further away any reconciliation,
Unfortunately, there is much sense to this. You both need to change, so as you change and you aren't together, you are getting farther away. Frustrating stuff.
As for you wife, other than the impulsive Mini Cooper purchase, everything else you say could be seen as a positive. She needs to improve herself. This is why I caution about the quick MLC diagnosis. And to be honest, anyone who jumps on ad quickly says, "yep, MLC" should be taken with a grain of salt. We have never met your wife.
But keep doing what you need to do for you. Also, to address your notion of total detachment, sometimes a break is needed to see a real difference. But you have a good attitude about this. Make sure you hold onto it.
Thanks for your perspective. I don't want to jump to erroneous conclusions; this situation demands clear, careful analysis of everything. The abrupt change on health/exercise/diet seems like MLC to me, but I need to raise this with my therapist.
I absolutely agree that she is changing in healthy ways. I am glad, and was glad before the separation, to see them. She's needed to do a lot of this for a long time. She's well on the way to being a better person. I was skittish about praise for the changes, in part because I avoided sensitive issues and knew that she was sensitive about what she was attempting to do. For a while before the separation, I could tell she was uncertain about whether she could keep the weight off. She sometimes asked, "Will you still love me if I go back to the old me?" I said of course, which was the truth. I see now how I have been "conflict" averse, so even though I sometimes thought she should lose weight for the sake of her own health, I never raised it with her. I feared she would take it as criticism, which she has long history of doing even when no criticism is intended. Raising the issue of her weight, even in the sincerest of ways, would have pushed both our "buttons." She had to want to do it for herself. She has had, ever since we met, a deep feeling that she is unlovable. I failed to fill that void, and I own those failings. The void is bigger than me, however. It also comes from her parents. She has been working her way out of that "problem" for several months and had developed a much stronger self-confidence. I'm glad to see that no matter what happens to us.
Meanwhile, I'm working on my stuff, which I should have done long ago. Better late than never. I feel we are both becoming better people and believe we could have a richer, deeper marriage as a result of these transformations.
If there's a road back, it will be a long and hard walk. Do I know her? Does she know me? In many ways, I feel, the answer to those questions right now is "no," at least in some major ways. That's scary, but also unsurprising given the paths we're on right now. I'll continue to give her space and work on myself, and keep on with GAL. One day at a time.
Given that I'm three months into a separation and out of the house with minimal contact about emotional/heavy stuff (wife said she wanted space, and I'm giving her plenty of that for now), should I contact a lawyer in case we're headed for a D? She's not said we are, but shows no sign yet of willingness to go to couples therapy, talk to me about the problems we each need to own, or just where she is emotionally. She did breakdown in front of me two weeks ago, saying "My life is all f...ed up." I asked if she wanted to talk about anything, but she said no. I asked a second time, she said no and then I left. That's one of the few peeks behind the "mask" I've gotten. I'm doing a better job of letting go of trying to read things into the slimmest of evidence from an email, or when I go to the house to mow the yard or pay bills, etc. I'm moving to a new apartment in a month (she doesn't know that yet) and moving forward with the GAL. I will not walk out on the marriage. Part of me thinks she'd like me to do just that, but I have no firm basis for that idea. I just don't know where she is emotionally aside from a few brief peeks.
If I do see a lawyer, what do I need to ask? How do I know if the lawyer is a good one? I don't want to screw my wife in any D that might happen in our future. I'm not that kind of person. But I also want to make sure I am protected. My family has no assets; I have long had to take care of myself financially. I don't think she's vindictive, but in cases like this you never know. As far as I can tell, her paradigm is that I'm the problem in the relationship, and her "problem" is only to figure out why she put up with my problems/neglect. I feel it's a lot more complicated than that, though I do plead guilty to a lot of sins. Right now the idea of talking about some things I'd like to raise seems a LONG way off, if it ever happens.
Bruce, If you don't want a divorce then don't do anything towards getting one. You are doing a really good thing by giving her the space that she is asking for. this is a great opportunity for you to learn patience. Showing that you respect her wishes right now will go further than just about anything else with her. I realize that 3 months seems like an eternity right now but it really is a short time.
How old is your wife?
Have you considered that your W is just going through a Midlife Transition. It sounds to me like she is evaluating her life and trying to figure out who she is and what she really wants. this is actually a good thing something that we all need to go through. Kind of like adolescence all over again. It becomes a crisis when the person avoids looking at their life and starts running away from it by using alcohol, sex, drugs, spending lots of money, having an affair, etc. From what I read here it doesn't sound like she is doing those things she is just wanting space to be able to work through this time of transition.
I really wouldn't worry about a divorce unless you really want one or she starts proceedings herself.
You are doing great. Just keep working on the patience. If she is receptive to the gifts than keep on giving them.
ST
At the bar the Judge will not look us over for medals, degrees, or diplomas, but for scars. - Hugh B. Brown
Thanks much for your perspective. Transition may indeed be a better term, given that when I read what many on these boards have gone through my situation looks like a walk in the park. If she's in "crisis" it's mild by comparison to many I've seen here.
She's 39. She said at one point early in the separation that she needed to figure out if she could trust me with her future, and that she didn't have much time left to "get it right." I empathize with what she's saying. I absolutely agree that I had/have some major work to do, and I'm doing it. She does too, in terms of what I need from her and wasn't getting. It's a classic example of the two of us spiraling apart, where one person's actions reinforce and expand the distance felt by the other. I take responsibility for most of the problems, yet if all she feels is that she's a victim I won't go back. I need some changes from her, too.
I'm facing things I should have faced long ago, and I feel good about that no matter what happens with us. I hate to sound arrogant, but in many was the husband she's wanted and needed is starting to appear right in front of her, if only she'll look. I know there's a lot of reason for doubt on her part, and that a lot of history pulls her in the other direction. I'm not naive; I know that many people change only after it's too late. Still, I'm standing for my marriage and will be patient. It helps to know that three months isn't long in these matters. And if it doesn't work, I'll try to take some consolation in that I've become a better person for whomever may enter my life next. Take care.
